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09-25-2018 06:46 PM  10 months ago
BeltFedBrowning

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Kansas City

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It seems like you are stuck in radio programming, maybe? Like it is impossible to mix outside of a radio? My grandma used to mix cookies in a bowl
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09-25-2018 06:50 PM  10 months ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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BeltFedBrowning...
It seems like you are stuck in radio programming, maybe? Like it is impossible to mix outside of a radio? My grandma used to mix cookies in a bowl
I would respectfully submit that you don't understand the definition of mixing. Mixing by design is the combining of two or more input channels into a single or multiple output. In the case of the mechanical collective scheme what is getting mixed?
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09-25-2018 06:51 PM  10 months ago
BeltFedBrowning

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Kansas City

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Where do you get this definition?
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09-25-2018 06:57 PM  10 months ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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BeltFedBrowning...
Where do you get this definition?
Oh, now you want the definition of mixing? Do a search.
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09-26-2018 12:47 AM  10 months ago
wjvail

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Meridian, Mississippi

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What I see is a roll channel moving to control roll via two links. What I also see is a collective channel modifying the output of the roll servo to effect collective via the same two links.

Master channel: Collective Servo
Slave channel: Roll Servo Tilt.

Collective -> Roll Servo Tilt.
___________

"->" logic implication symbol.

"Well, nothing bad can happen now."
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09-26-2018 01:21 AM  10 months ago
CBell

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Nova Scotia, Canada

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What about this? Elevator, aileron.. or both?

Watch at YouTube

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09-26-2018 02:21 AM  10 months ago
wjvail

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Meridian, Mississippi

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edit..."Well, nothing bad can happen now."
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09-26-2018 02:25 AM  10 months ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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wjvail...
What I see is a roll channel moving to control roll via two links. What I also see is a collective channel modifying the output of the roll servo to effect collective via the same two links.

Master channel: Collective Servo
Slave channel: Roll Servo Tilt.

Collective -> Roll Servo Tilt.
___________

"->" logic implication symbol.

You may see that but if you take the roll servo and disconnect it from power so it can't move; when you move the collective pitch servo you still get collective pitch right? If you power the roll servo up and disconnect the collective pitch servo from power and move the cyclic stick you still get cyclic roll right?

If both these tests are true and they are. No Master, no slave, no mixing.
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09-26-2018 02:27 PM  10 months ago
wjvail

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Meridian, Mississippi

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TMoore...
You may see that but if you take the roll servo and disconnect it from power so it can't move; when you move the collective pitch servo you still get collective pitch right? If you power the roll servo up and disconnect the collective pitch servo from power and move the cyclic stick you still get cyclic roll right?
Hmm... It's a mechanical mixer. The roll servo has two output modes - call them spin and rock. There are two output modes for a single servo arm. One output but two degrees of freedom. One output rotates the two control balls about each other and the other translates both balls together linearly(ish).

The test wouldn't be to unplug a servo, the test would be to inhibit the mix. The test would be to inhibit the roll servo rock function of the mixer. If you remove the mixer, i.e. mechanically prevent the roll servo from rocking, then do you still have collective?
"Well, nothing bad can happen now."
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09-26-2018 07:56 PM  10 months ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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wjvail...
TMoore...
You may see that but if you take the roll servo and disconnect it from power so it can't move; when you move the collective pitch servo you still get collective pitch right? If you power the roll servo up and disconnect the collective pitch servo from power and move the cyclic stick you still get cyclic roll right?
Hmm... It's a mechanical mixer. The roll servo has two output modes - call them spin and rock. There are two output modes for a single servo arm. One output but two degrees of freedom. One output rotates the two control balls about each other and the other translates both balls together linearly(ish).

The test wouldn't be to unplug a servo, the test would be to inhibit the mix. The test would be to inhibit the roll servo rock function of the mixer. If you remove the mixer, i.e. mechanically prevent the roll servo from rocking, then do you still have collective?
Bill, I don't know how to break this to you but there is no mixing going on. The three functions here are discrete. Can't you see beyond the fact that the swash only moves up and down to input collective pitch into the rotor head. What if the washout mixer moved or a wire moved a U channel in the head like on an old System 80 machine, would you call that mixing too? Those systems used 3 servos too. One for pitch, one for nick and one for roll....just like this system does.
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09-26-2018 09:08 PM  10 months ago
CBell

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Nova Scotia, Canada

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An example of non-mixing would be where the swashplate only controls one function (cyclic pitch) and a linkage traveling through the hollow main shaft actuates collective pitch.

There is most definitely mechanical mixing going on in models like the Raptor, X-Cell, etc. What are your thoughts on the video I posted earlier regarding the mechanical Elevon mixer?
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09-26-2018 09:56 PM  10 months ago
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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CBell...
An example of non-mixing would be where the swashplate only controls one function (cyclic pitch) and a linkage traveling through the hollow main shaft actuates collective pitch.

There is most definitely mechanical mixing going on in models like the Raptor, X-Cell, etc. What are your thoughts on the video I posted earlier regarding the mechanical Elevon mixer?
I'll deal with Elevon mixing later. Right now it's an aside to the topic at hand. Cyclic pitch is two functions not one.
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09-27-2018 11:48 AM  10 months ago
CBell

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Nova Scotia, Canada

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TMoore...
I'll deal with Elevon mixing later. Right now it's an aside to the topic at hand. Cyclic pitch is two functions not one.
The elevon mixer in that video is part for part exactly the same as the CCPM mixer Bill posted in his earlier messages.

So in a way.. you just admitted to mexhanical mixing.

Yes, cyclic pitch offers two control functions. Fore/aft and left/right. Both functions are still cyclic pitch. IE blade pitch modified with the rotation of the head, hence cyclical.
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09-27-2018 12:06 PM  10 months ago
HeliAdict

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Texas

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Two inputs to control a single output is mixing. (Elevons, Rudervators)

On the helicopters, there is no mechanical mixing. A servo is being used for its linkage but still two servos too two outputs.
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09-27-2018 01:07 PM  10 months ago
CBell

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Nova Scotia, Canada

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I've given this a lot of thought... and I think that we're all too stubborn to let go of our religious and political beliefs of CCPM (or whatever words you want to use) from either side of the fence. A number of members here have been involved with r/c for several decades, which embeds our opinions even deeper. Myself included.

At the end of the day I'd still be happy to share a few beer at a model helicopter event with ya's. I hope to see some of you at events in the near future! mCCPM, eCCPM, fCCPM, kCCPM.... I can crash them all equally as well
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09-27-2018 03:35 PM  10 months ago
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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CBell...
TMoore...
I'll deal with Elevon mixing later. Right now it's an aside to the topic at hand. Cyclic pitch is two functions not one.
The elevon mixer in that video is part for part exactly the same as the CCPM mixer Bill posted in his earlier messages.

So in a way.. you just admitted to mexhanical mixing.

Yes, cyclic pitch offers two control functions. Fore/aft and left/right. Both functions are still cyclic pitch. IE blade pitch modified with the rotation of the head, hence cyclical.
There are still a lot of weeds left to get down in and I'm going to say this one more time. There is no mixing and cyclic pitch is two functions. If cyclic pitch isn't two functions then why drive the swash with two servos? Your magic fingers can use one servo for cyclic pitch Colin and I'll drink beer on the sidelines while you demo that model.

Some of you folks just can't see beyond the fact that the swash raises and lowers to input collective pitch. This is what causes y'all to think there is some kind of mixing going on but there isn't.

The Elevon mixer is significantly different.
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09-27-2018 03:54 PM  10 months ago
CBell

rrApprentice

Nova Scotia, Canada

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Here's a picture I stole from somewhere else on the internet. One of these "things" controls the V-tail on an airplane, the other controls the swashplate on an older X-cell. Can you tell me which one belongs to which aircraft? If not, are they identical?

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09-27-2018 04:15 PM  10 months ago
wjvail

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Meridian, Mississippi

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I think we established there is no mixing of flight controls. They begin as 3 channels and come out as one output with 3 distinct properties. I pretty clearly stated that back in post 26, if not earlier. Again, flight controls aren't mixed.

All that is really being debated it the systematic of what has been traditionally called a "mechanical mixer" or mCCPM.

Say we have a black box the size of a bread box. To the left of the box are three inputs controlled by three levers labeled 1, 2 and 3. To the right of the box is a single output with three qualities - say, chocolate chip cookie dough that can be varied in the sweetness, amount of chips and the amount it will rise when baked. Lever one will always control the sweetness. Likewise lever 2 an 3 will control the chips and baking soda respectively.

What would you like to call the black box? Please don't say you call it nothing again. That doesn't advance the discussion. If you are the shop foreman for a cookie dough factory and responsible for the black box, how would you tell someone to go service the "_______" box? How would describe the purpose of the box in daily conversion?
"Well, nothing bad can happen now."
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09-27-2018 04:38 PM  10 months ago
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Cbell is still rated as a rrApprentice yet he has written a whole slew of highly technical information on helicopters. Just based on his extensive knowledge and technical papers he should automatically be RRproffesor Extraordinaire.
I am still a novice, but thanks Colin for all your writings.
As to mixing, if it's done in the radio, it's E...., but if it's done mechanically it's M...., cause I need to keep it simple in my old weak mind. But good discussion, thanks guys.

OK Colin, what the heck is fCCPM, kCCPM..

Paul
I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?
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09-27-2018 04:44 PM  10 months ago
CBell

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Nova Scotia, Canada

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Paul, I was only kidding . sCCPM (sarcastic) is one of my favorites._____________
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