BeltFedBrowning My JR gasser had something similar. I considered it MCCPM

wjvail As it applies to model helicopters... The outer ring of most of our swashes has three control balls. We also have to achieve three control functions - pitch, roll(cyclic), and collective. Very conveniently we have three servos to achieve these goals. 3 servos, 3 input points, 3 functions. It would seem pretty simple to hook one servo to each of the input points and call it job done. Obviously that isn't going to work. We need some mechanism to mix these three servos to input the proper control to the swash. We need a mechanical mixer (to achieve the desired Cyclic/Collective control). We need a Mechanical Cyclic Collective Pitch Mixer.

wjvailI would agree and I think that is how many people use the terms mCCPM or eCCPM. How are the servos mixed to achieve the desired swash control - mechanically or electronically?

I believe the point TMoore is making is that at no point are pitch, roll and collective mixed. In fact, great lengths have been taken to see that roll is just roll - no pitch or collective input required or desired. Same for pitch and collective - no mixing involved.

Still, there a question mark... have I got that about right?

wjvail I think we are getting hung up on the literal use of the word "mixing".

Let's come at it from another direction. I think we can agree that the "device" at the front of the below helicopter is required for it to fly as it was designed. I cannot remove it and expect the helicopter to fly. The 3 electromechanical devices we call servos are combined (not mixed) in such a way as to tilt, roll and lift the swash in the desired fashion.

I think we are hung up on calling this a mechanical mixer.?.? I agree - schematically we are not mixing the servos. Then what - we are combining them? That isn't it. We aren't combining in the literal sense. We aren't ganging them together.

What would you like to call the device in question? What could we call this control system? If not a mechanical mixer (and I think I see your point) what should we call it? Mechanical Cyclic Collective Pitch Controller? What would you call a system that combines the input of 3 servos in such a way as to achieve the movement of the swash. Mechanical mixer is out. Mechanical controller? mCCPC?

wjvail Again, I see your point but I think you're being very literal.

Years ago model helicopters had a fly bar. They had two control systems - Bell and Hiller. One controlled collective and the other controlled cyclic inputs. These two systems met at the mixing levers. (You knew all that.) I think what you are saying is that this too was a misnomer. The "mixing" levers were, in fact, designed to prevent the two systems from interacting. At no point did a collective input "mix" with cyclic and vice versa. One side of a "mixing" lever was responsible for collective and the other for flybar cyclic controls. No amount of flybar displacement resulted in collective. Extremes in collective would never result in a pitch/roll input. Literally these would be better called anti-mixing levers.

V-Tail mixing? Nope - no mixing. Rudder is Rudder and Elevator is Elevator. Mechanical and electronic "mixers" don't exist. There is no mixing. No amount of up elevator will result in a rudder input. Hard rudder will not induce a pitch command.

Similarly what has become commonly called mechanical mixing in helicopters is actually carefully designed to preclude mixing. I suppose we could call it Mechanical Cyclic Collective Pitch anti-Mixing.

No mixing. Got it. I see your point but find the reality cumbersome. The terms mCCPM and eCCPM may be grammatically incorrect but they do serve a purpose. They have come to mean a specific thing and with their use, everyone knows what you are talking about.

Am I getting close to understanding your message?

Jerry K I have to tell you Mark has a big smile on his face, thinking just like the old days, that you two put there. I think it is great for Mark. You are arguing semantics, and it must be raining because you both have too much time on your hands. I am going flying.

Rojoalfa The direct drive of srimok kasama... Explosive!

wjvail I've given this far too much thought.

I think the root of the discussion is that some of us see "CCPM", Collective Cyclic Pitch Mixing, and see the output side. Terry is pointing out Collective and Cyclic Pitch are not mixed. He, of course, is correct. Putting an "e" or "m" in front of CCPM makes little grammatical sense given that there is no mixing.

I on the other hand have always seen the input side. How are the inputs established to achieve the desired output? It never occurred to me to look at what I have traditionally known as a mechanical mixer and ask, how are the output functions mixed. V-Tail mixing, mechanical or electronic, never implies the mixing of the output functions.

Going on... Terry, I do see your point that in a mCCPM control system, each servo, taken independently of each other, serves one function and for any given desired command output, only one servo is commanded to move by the transmitter.

But, the act of moving one servo by another servo to achieve the desired output, is mixing. The mechanical moving of the roll servo by the collective servo, as happens with a Raptor30/50, is to my thinking, mechanical mixing. Admittedly the aileron servo is never commanded to move with a collective requests but it is instead mechanically and physically moved by another servo.

I see that in a mCCPM system multiple channels are never commanded to move at the same time to achieve a single control output. From sticks to swash there is one one servo being commanded to move. But, I also see the physical movement of an entire servo, and its associated control arm, as mechanical mixing. Using the collective servo to physically move the output arm of the roll servo (and the rest of the servo) is almost by definition, mechanical mixing.

wjvail Below is a picture of one of the simplest mechanical mixers I could quickly find. It shows the roll and collective servo (and the rudder).

Below is the roll servo. How will the swash receive a collective input without the roll servo arm moving?