RunRyder RC
WATCH
 1 page 1609 views TOPIC CLOSED
Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-Electric General Discussion › Help with Electric motor knowledge please...... new to electric here
12-22-2015 03:10 PM  3 years ago
Topic Vote0Post 1
KingCobra Heli

rrApprentice

MA-USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Help with Electric motor knowledge please...... new to electric here
Hello, as the title says I need help with understanding Electric motor knowledge please...... new to electric here.

I understand the very basics (KV) and that's about it...lol.

How do I know what is the right choice? What determines the power and efficiency (flight times) and what not?

Poles and magnets, windings whats it all mean?

I have a few larger electric helis and more to come. For now its outdated stuff. Just got a Fusion airframe cause I have many Velocitys to rob parts if needed (and kinda like them) Also Blade 600's.

I have the E-flite 700-500kv the Blade came with (haven't run it yet.

Okay, I bought a Quantum 4135-530kv and looking at the Quantum 4125-560kv. Should I have bought that one instead? should I buy that one also to try? They also make a 4115-1200 but it seems small and a short shaft also. I'm looking budget with quality for now. I'm a sport flyer no 3D yet.... yet anyway...lol.

Thanks, and please let me know if I'm not asking the right questions here and why also.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-22-2015 07:37 PM  3 years ago
Heli Fanatix

rrVeteran

Fountain Valley, CA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Motors come in various sizes, weight, efficiency and power. Without going into too much details and stepping on anyone's toes (thus upsetting them).
I was too just like you. I own what you have times 10

Here is the skinny of it:
First 2 number of a motor represents canister diameter
Second 2 is the stator height
Magnets are on the canister
Poles are on the motor base
Type of winding and size will determine the power and efficiency
Kv is the rpm
- lower cell count, higher kv
- higher cell count, lower kv

Example: 550X on
- 6S with 4035-1100kv
- 12S with 4035-560kv
- to achieve the same RPM at respective voltage
- with higher voltage, it's more efficient, cooler, less bogging and better flights times(assuming head speed and flying style is the same)
- you want to gear so you are flying at around 70%

To make it simple, here is what is suggest:
- use what you have
- as you gain experience, which you will with time
- you can build with more optimal components

Most manufacturers have recommendations of motors to use. Depending on your heli, but typical size now a days is 6mm shaft, Reduces flexing

Shaft height varies if heli uses counter bearings/ bearing support or not. For the most part, you want to have the motor shaft above pinion, counter bearing or pinion support about 2mm

If the shaft on your current motor is too short. You can order a XNova shaft with the appropriate height from helidirect. Get one from a 4030 series that is 8mm down to 6mm. You might have to put some flat spots and cut shaft to length but will work

The quantum 4135 is smaller than your stock 600X motor but will be enough for you. It's also the innards that counts. Quantum is your budget and quality vs the 600X motor.

I use nothing but X-Era and X Nova motor. They have
- tons of power
- super efficient
- durable
- play very well with all ESC's
- Never had to oil or maintain within 300+ flights

* The description above are used with Kontronik and YGE ESC's. They generate different HS (head speed) and work different than other ESC's. These are just my opinions that I have concluded after thousands of flights with 7 different motor and esc brands

Hope this helps
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-22-2015 11:19 PM  3 years ago
KingCobra Heli

rrApprentice

MA-USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Motors
Scott, first off thank you.

I think I understand the "KV-6s/12s" area.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by 70%. I use a formula I found on Google ; kv x volts / (main/pinion)= total x .8
((80% efficiency))

I agree and intend on using this stuff. Trying to determine if I should take advantage of a sale. I recognize the Quantum/Nova connection.

My Quantum is just as big as the 700-500kv motor (I think the 700 means 700 sized could be wrong) that came with my Blade 600x.

The quantum 4125-560 is smaller can than my 4135 and the Quantum 4115-1200 (6s) is a lot smaller yet.
I am excited about the Quantum, It seems like quality without remortgaging the house...lol These heli motors can get pricy.

I am using CC ESC I've already bought a bunch of them on Blk-Fri and there seems to be a lot out there. Hope that was good. The support seems to be outstanding so far.

Thanks again.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-23-2015 02:40 AM  3 years ago
Heli Fanatix

rrVeteran

Fountain Valley, CA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
The 70% reference is to gear your head speed so you would be flying in that range. for my 600 class, I like to fly around 2250 ~ 2400 HS. If I fly at these HS and my ESC is in the 70% TC, it would work well.

Typically 4035 size motors are good for 700. Manufacturers are using 700 class motors in 600 airframes. Take into consideration that weight does make a difference. I have used XEra 4025-560 for my 700 with good performance. I save a lot of weight here and there and that makes a difference over all. I was able to use a X Nova 4030-470kv on my Goblin 630 with 660mm blades and 12S 4100mah packs to save 2 lbs off stock. The eflite 700-50kv weights 15.5 ounce and a X Nova weights 16.1 but have a lot more power. The quantum weights lmore than XNova but power in between eflite and XNova.

BTW
I use flat curves for my ESC Gov, raising or lowering percentages would change my HS.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-23-2015 03:06 AM  3 years ago
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Most everything that was in the earlier posts was valid, but I think the 70% value with regards to Castle controllers is too low. One other thing that comes into play is whether the ESC is passive or freewheeling.

That really doesn't involve the motors, but it does have to be considered. I run all Castle escs, and when you are governing them, because they are passive, they need to operate in the 90 percent range, otherwise they get hot. So that is a consideration.

Various manufacturers call their motors different things. As you have seen from your own experience you have a 700-500, and a 4035-530, made by different vendors.

FWIW, Align sizes their motors pretty much in line with their heli size, with the exception of their 730 motor, which is designed to go on a 550 heli. It is a lot of power for that heli, but IMHO, not suitable for a 700 sized heli. I feel that a 4035 motor will power a 700 sized heli, but will not have a lot of performance. I think it is more of a 600 heli size fit. Most manufacturers indicate 45XX sized motors for performance on a 700 sized heli - Quantum 4530, and Scorpion 4525 being popular fits.

On my 700 sized helis, I run Scorpion 4525s, Quantum 4530s, and Align 750/800s. Motor choice is like everything else in this hobby, a personal choice. Everyone has their favorite brand, size, KV rating, etc, but for your Castle you need a KV rating and heli gearing that will keep you at least above the 90% range.

Hope this helps.
Logo 700, Specter 700, Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
Amain Team Rep
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-23-2015 05:18 AM  3 years ago
Heli Fanatix

rrVeteran

Fountain Valley, CA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
I had noted that:
I use Kontronik and YGE exclusively.
(They are light, great GOV, easy to program and solid BEC)

The reason why CC heat up is b/c they need to run near wide open (b/c of none free wheeling). You can't run at different HS aswell. I'm able to run anywhere from 2100 ~ 2400 on my 600 machines with my choice of ESC.

Align 700MX
- light
- good power
- works well over all

Scorpion 4035
- was the better alternative to the 700MX for years
- more than plenty of power if you know how to manage your collective
- perfect for a light and efficient 700 class machine

Scorpion 4525
- more torque than 4035
- reduced flight times compared to 4530
- good in between 4035 & 4525

Scorpion 4530
- more torque and power than 4525
- at the cost of flight times

It's more than choosing a motor by a preference, its about gearing, power and ESC comprehension to make a perfect setup for your flying style. That is why Align put beast motors in their 600L and 700L. Bigger canisters but most importantly proper kv for a ballistic power band

Selecting a correct kv of give or take 60kv will let you pump the collective and pull through a maneuver without bogging. You are in that perfect power band. Now that adds to the meaning in the phrase "knowledge is power".
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-23-2015 09:43 AM  3 years ago
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Yes, no disagreement, but the OP indicated he would be running CC ESCs, so he has to make some concessions on the motor side to keep the ESCs happy.

However, my 12s 600 pro runs 2000, 2200, 2350 just fine on 603 blades.
Logo 700, Specter 700, Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
Amain Team Rep
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-23-2015 02:57 PM  3 years ago
KingCobra Heli

rrApprentice

MA-USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
ESC
Ok, thanks so much guys.

I will wait on buying any more motors for now. Oh and I don't know if it matters any but I have a 4135-530 not a 4035 as you guys have stated.

But this discussion has raised new questions/concerns about ESC's. I have purchased a bunch of ESC's in haste as I always do...lol, I'm inpatient.
I have 2 EDGE120HV's now and bought an EDGE160HV in anticipation of getting a Trex700 in my future and wanted to make sure I was all set when I got it. But after getting it in the mail and opening it OMG is it big and a little hefty (probably big for a 600 class heli)--afterthought-- So I'm out the money now (not out but committed to using it).

The 90% range still confuses me a little as to what you are referring to. Please help there. Is my formula mentioned earlier where you are getting this? Is there a formula to figure the (90%) you are referring to?

The Kontronik's and YGE are big money. Don't know about the "free wheeling" as it is used in the ESC world. Though I am understanding the meaning of the term (gearhead--motorcycles,cars,mudtrucks,bicycles etc.) And YGE 70% and CC stuct to 90%??? please explain a little further.

Thanks again, you guy are being very helpful.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-23-2015 03:59 PM  3 years ago
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Your reference to percentage was for the efficiency of the ESC, meaning that you got 80% of the energy you put in back out as system work.

The other percentage numbers is a reference to the "on-off" cycle of the electrical pulses the ESC generates. I know only enough about what it is to tell you that when you do your setups, the Castle software will look at your motor parameters (stator and magnet count), your heli gearing, your battery cell count, and what RPM headspeed you want it to maintain, and it will tell you if it is a good number to run.

Guys a lot smarter than myself have shown that your Edges need to run in the 90s range. Do a thread search for active and passive freewheeling, and you will see what I am referring to.
Logo 700, Specter 700, Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
Amain Team Rep
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
03-24-2016 02:09 AM  3 years ago
Mahfu

rrNovice

Chicago, IL - US

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Hey KingCobra,

I'm guessing by now that you have figured out what they were referring to when the guys said 90% for Castle and 70% for Kontronik. I would like to just put a little finer point on the answer for anyone else in the future. When they were referring to the 90% on the Castle they were talking about throttle output on your transmitter. So when you are setting up your throttle curve in Idle 1 for example you would have a straight line at 90%.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
03-24-2016 04:20 AM  3 years ago
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
When they were referring to the 90% on the Castle they were talking about throttle output on your transmitter. So when you are setting up your throttle curve in Idle 1 for example you would have a straight line at 90%.
Mahfu,

I have to respectfully disagree with your last statement, as it could be misleading. If you are running a CC Edge or Ice, and you are running the internal governor on the ESCs, throttle curves only tell the esc which headspeed you have requested in your setup.

Castle used blocks or ranges of throttle values, each range calling for a specific governed headspeed. 0% - 49% on your throttle curve will give you the first requested headspeed, 50% - 99% will give the second, and 100% will give the third.

Any throttle curve value will give the same output within the range. You could have a normal curve of 1, 15, 30, 40, 49, and the ESC would go to the value that you had set in the requested rpm box. Same for the second range, but in order to get the ESC to set the third value, the TC has to be 100. Castle just says use flat 30, 70, and 100 curves as a simple reference point, but when I first started setting them up, I used a 0,30,30,30,30 curve for my normal curve, and changed to a flat 30 curve after I shut down my motor doing a inverted punch out and went to full low stick. The resulting auto didn't doo too much damage to my heli, but it was enough to see the error of my ways.

Those throttle curves don't in any way have any influence on the "work" the ESC does. That is determined by the motor KV values, the pole and magnet count, the battery voltage it will be running, and the gearing that the heli uses.

When you input the required parameters, the software will calculate the on-off switching cycles for the output pulses to the motor, and will alert you to values that are outside the ideal for the ESC.

I think you are probably correct in setting up a non governed setup, where you calibrate the ESC and the TX, and just use TX throttle curves to obtain desired headspeed, but that isn't applicable in a governed situation.
Logo 700, Specter 700, Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
Amain Team Rep
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
03-25-2016 10:30 AM  3 years ago
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

MyPosts All Forum Topic
I think the OP is now overwhelmed....Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
03-26-2016 03:55 AM  3 years ago
Heli Fanatix

rrVeteran

Fountain Valley, CA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
maybe ... i gave him a call and tried to give 1 on 1 help but haven't heard from again.

I suppose you can't want to teach more than the other person willing to want to learn.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
03-26-2016 12:26 PM  3 years ago
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Everyone learns at their own speed....

Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
03-26-2016 08:16 PM  3 years ago
Heli Fanatix

rrVeteran

Fountain Valley, CA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Small steps or slowly is OK ... But no follow up's are an indication of one's commitment to the hobby and discipline of the individual.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
04-02-2016 05:44 PM  3 years ago
KingCobra Heli

rrApprentice

MA-USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Thanks
helifanatix
Small steps or slowly is OK ... But no follow up's are an indication of one's commitment to the hobby and discipline of the individual.
I've been extremely busy with my employment I'm a Steward on a large Union heavy construction job that's had it's share of problems to address keeping me quite busy.
Also have been attending mandatory training that goes along with my Steward position.
On top of that I needed to attend ,my mandatory continuing education classes to maintain my MA Construction Supervisors license.

So to say the least I've been busy and still not caught up on my paperwork. And to say I am not committed to the hobby or not disciplined is completely out of line Sir.

I am very grateful to all of you for trying to help me and offer your input. I am also grateful to have this forum/community to share advise and experience. Thank you RR.

The 90% thing isn't completely clear though I haven't been able to wrap my head around it yet being so busy. Flying season is almost on us here though so I better get my paperwork caught up and get to it...lol.

I know its not in the transmitter as those values tell the gov where to be as stated previous.

The calculator in the Castle set up tells you your operating percentage when you put in all your model specs. I was curious as to specifically what that referred to. I think it refers to the amount of energy input vs. output. In time I'm sure it will become more clear.

Again, Thank you everyone for your input.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
04-03-2016 04:51 AM  3 years ago
Heli Fanatix

rrVeteran

Fountain Valley, CA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
I know we are all busy, but it doesn't take much time to follow up.

This is my normal routine:
- 50 hrs a week managing an automotive shop
- 5 hrs a week in the gym
- 10 hrs on the weekend at the flying field teaching & mentoring
- studying for 2 new career
- passing a state exam & required courses

I get it, we all have a life to run. despite my schedule, I still have time to post, share, help, buy, sale & pack. I'm think it's fair to expect the OP to follow up (just like you did and that's great, but not after some probing). Just as much as the OP hoping to get responses when he puts up a thread. That is it. It's the unspoken agreement and what I think should be proper forum etiquette. How often do we get pleas for help and person goes missing? Finish what we have started please. Weather inquiring on an classified post or any type of thread. if you didn't get the memo...no problem, at least there are more of us in the know
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
WATCH
 1 page 1609 views TOPIC CLOSED
Home✈️Aircraft🚁Helicoptere-Electric General Discussion › Help with Electric motor knowledge please...... new to electric here
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 4  Topic Subscribe

Monday, July 22 - 3:14 pm - Copyright © 2000-2019 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online