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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Paddle size?
06-21-2015 04:47 AM  3 years agoPost 1
jason46

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MI

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On a 550 I'm curious what characteristics I could expect from the 2 paddles pictured. Quite a bit different size and profile.

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06-21-2015 05:13 AM  3 years agoPost 2
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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cyclic response is dampened and "holding" power is increased with additional airfoil size and weight if I remember correctly...

there is alot to do with the mixing ratio as well. both the airfoil size and weight have to be matched to the mixing arms to get the best from a fly barred system for your given flying style.... get it wrong and its annoying in the air.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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06-21-2015 05:56 AM  3 years agoPost 3
Heli 770

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06-21-2015 07:12 AM  3 years agoPost 4
oldfart

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Vancouver, Canada

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Assuming they are both the same weight, the bigger black ones will give better stability and more cyclic power - the better of both worlds.

Phil

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06-21-2015 12:15 PM  3 years agoPost 5
Jim-bob

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Little Hocking OH USA

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As I recall those rotortech 3D paddles were pretty lively. I used to run those and Curtis "stubbs" on my machines. The white ones look like align carbons, I've never tried those on anything bigger than a 450.

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06-23-2015 03:33 PM  3 years agoPost 6
FNFAL

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Dayton OH

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What is the cause of a FB heli rolling right during FFF? Is it a paddle thing?

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06-23-2015 04:01 PM  3 years agoPost 7
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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not as much as the main blades themselves...remember that when the heli is in forward flight the blades are no longer traveling through the air at the same speed relative to the air anymore. The blade that is currently moving faster relative to the air in the direction of flight is the advancing blade, the blade on opposite side is called the retreating blade. So with the advancing blade now producing more lift than the retreating blade you now have uneven lift on the disk which is causing a roll to the right.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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06-23-2015 04:01 PM  3 years agoPost 8
Richardmid1

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Leeds, England

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What is the cause of a FB heli rolling right during FFF? Is it a paddle thing?
Not really. It could be a 'retreating blade stall' thing where forward flight speed nears or exceeds the tip speed of the retreating blade.

What HS does this happen at?

It could also be a head phasing or geometry issue.

60% of the time, it works every time!

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06-23-2015 04:19 PM  3 years agoPost 9
FNFAL

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Dayton OH

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Thanks both. Indeed it's not been every FB heli I've owned that's done this but it does happen. When I say FFF, I'm being overly generous with the "fast" part on this Blade 500. Can't tell if forward speed subtractor as a percentage of tip speed is large enough to affect. But even planes have P factor for uneven thrust so perhaps that's what I'm kinda witnessing.

FYI - Paddles are out of phase perhaps by a few degrees lagging.

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06-23-2015 05:35 PM  3 years agoPost 10
oldfart

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Vancouver, Canada

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No, it should not roll to the right. When set-up properly the FB should automatically compensate for any roll or pitch tendency in FFF.

If yours does not, I would suspect the phasing is not right or your flybar pivot is bent so that your flybar does not sit at 90 degrees to the feathering spindle (blades)

Phil

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06-24-2015 02:34 AM  3 years agoPost 11
FNFAL

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Dayton OH

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Tks, will replace slightly bowed flybar & retest...

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06-24-2015 02:47 AM  3 years agoPost 12
Aaron29

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USA

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What is the cause of a FB heli rolling right during FFF? Is it a paddle thing?
Flybar trim shifts are normal and cannot really be eliminated. If you trim for hover but it's not trim in FFF that's normal. You can adjust and adjust but you just make concessions in other performance. The trim shift depends on which angle and speed the wind it hitting the FB heli at. Most of the tendencies in parallel to wind can be reduced or eliminated, but tendencies 90 degrees to the wind are always present.

A FB heli is never really in trim, save for ONE condition, the one you trimmed it for. Conversely, a FBL heli is always in trim. This, BTW, is why FBL is so popular.

Some links you can see people racking their brain over this trim shift....

https://rc.runryder.com/t582132p1/

https://rc.runryder.com/t693583p1/

https://rc.runryder.com/t682352p1/

https://rc.runryder.com/t750411p1/

Some FB helis are worse than others but they all do it.

My life got better when I stopped racking my brain trying to fix it. Spent a lot of time eliminating slop, trying different paddles, weights, etc. Some will reduce but never eliminate the issue, and most solutions cost performance elsewhere.

I just learned to fly around the trim shifting. You literally can trim for FFF, then fly backwards and trim is different. Just fly around it. Eventually you do it without thought. The irony is how many of us FB guys didn't like FBL because we'd automatically put these unnecessary inputs in and disturb the FBL model. The FBL was too much of a good thing, LOL.

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06-24-2015 01:59 PM  3 years agoPost 13
FNFAL

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Dayton OH

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Thanks for the info. Whether flying a heli or plane in real life or remotely, involves a complex marriage of forces. I don't doubt that some form of corrective actions are always necessary, especially in non-stabilized "dumb" systems. Will try and keep my expectations in check.

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06-24-2015 04:16 PM  3 years agoPost 14
Aaron29

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USA

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Another issue you'll run into is many of the modern designs are optimized for flip rate and there isn't much you can do to change them. The manufacturer set the flybar ratios and delta such that they flip well but track terribly. I'm thinking of the fybarred Raptor and TREX, now, which are both very fast on the sticks, but TERRIBLE for tracking. Very little can be done unless you are a machinist.

Yeah. As said, all helis do it. Some are better than others. I became a Hirobo enthusiast because the SDX and SSV-IV heads do it minimally. Hirobo thinks more F3C and because of that they have neutral delta and adjustable flybar ratios. You can optimize them a lot. Unfortunately, Hirobo is kind of a nonstarter these days. But so is a good flybar heli in general. Sad.

You can get more flip rate from a FB, but then the stability goes to crap. This tradeoff in FB helis is another reason why FBL is so popular. They get both worlds.

This isn't to say FB isn't enjoyable. In some ways, I like the purity of it and the connected feel. With a well setup FB, the effect of trim shift is minimal and more importantly, predictable. Most people who "hate" flybar have never really flown a well setup one. I often wonder if they "know" what they are hating. They grew up on the TRex with it's fixed ratios and delta and poor tracking and said "yup, this sucks." Well, after owning a TRex 700N flybar, I can agree. But that isn't the flybar. It's the setup. I hated mine until I put an F3C head on it and then it tracked just fine. But it really slowed the flip rate. And most people just won't tolerate a slower flip rate. While it's true a well setup FB won't flip as fast as FBL, they track very well. And when I say won't flip as fast, it's still fast. Maybe not pissed off gnat, but you'll be able to perform any maneuver albeit a tad slower. So anyway, yeah. Most who "hate" FB have never had one that tracks.

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06-24-2015 04:32 PM  3 years agoPost 15
jason46

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MI

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First let me thank everybody for the great info!

It was interesting setting up another flybar heli after having recently setup an FBL. I so far really don't care one way or the other, I definitely enjoy flying flybar helis. Which really are extinct as far as new builds go, got to go pretty far out of your way to piece one together.

On Trex tracking, the V1 550 head seems to track well so far, but it is not "programmable". The V2 head that is programmable maybe doesn't track as well, but I wouldn't know.

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06-24-2015 04:39 PM  3 years agoPost 16
Aaron29

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USA

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Which really are extinct as far as new builds go, got to go pretty far out of your way to piece one together.
Yeah they are pretty much nonstarters these days. I prefer each for their own reasons and really would not like to see the FB go extinct. But it's heading that way.

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06-24-2015 04:41 PM  3 years agoPost 17
G.Stone

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Thompson, Pa. USA

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Most who "hate" FB have never had one that tracks.
Aint that the truth. I use both and IMO......Very tough to tell the difference.
I use JR stuff...adjustable...smooth....works.

After I stuff one in the dirt.......FBL all the way. Swap a few parts, back in the air.

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06-24-2015 04:45 PM  3 years agoPost 18
Aaron29

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USA

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Yeah. JR / Hirobo. Both have roots in F3C. They know what's up with balancing a setup. Not throwing away good tracking to get faster flipping.

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06-29-2015 04:50 PM  3 years agoPost 19
FNFAL

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Dayton OH

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Just installed new flybar. Clear now the old was bent. Much else to think about also. Thanks all.

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