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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Why I'm having trouble learning Fast Backwards Inverted.
05-31-2015 11:00 PM  3 years agoPost 21
AWittleWabbit

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O.C., CA

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Hi Wayne,

Keep at it man. It took me a lot of sim time to get it. It been answered but aile and rudder move the same direction. Opposite for inverted nose forward. If you fly planks on the side, flying a plank inverted is somewhat helpful for nose forward inverted flying.

Lastly, I find the sim far less frustrating by doing shorter, daily sessions. It will just click, try it.

Plus, each time you save it on the sim help you at the field. Early on, I'd (sometimes still) get the tail crooked while going fast and it would let loose. Talk about an oh crap moment. The sim helped me learn not to panic while my brain caught up with it.

Heli-itis sufferer.

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06-01-2015 01:59 AM  3 years agoPost 22
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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greater difficulty learning inverted forwards flight than backwards
Was the opposite for me....inverted forward is like flying a plank inverted for me...

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06-01-2015 02:00 AM  3 years agoPost 23
Cobra 46

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Cambridge il usa

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Same for me similer to a plank ! Backwards is SUCKING !!

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06-01-2015 04:33 AM  3 years agoPost 24
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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Since you're a former/current planker...who can fly a plank inverted...

Try to envision you're flying a plank....with your rudder reversed...and the tail is in front of the wing....
Aileron works in the same direction, but elev. is also reversed

With collective in "inverted mode".

Try that on the SIM and see if that helps...for me, I fly like the rotor disk is the "wing of a plank"...old habits...

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06-01-2015 05:43 AM  3 years agoPost 25
Cobra 46

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Cambridge il usa

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I can't always see the rotor disc 👀

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06-02-2015 03:33 AM  3 years agoPost 26
Einzelganger

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Campbell, Texas

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O.K. I've spent about 10 hours on the sim since I opened this topic.
I've got backwards inverted down to the point that I can consistently empty the tank (10 minutes) constantly in high speed flight. The transition to forward inverted is still tough though. Backwards upright is tough too now.
I guess that I'll have to keep going back and forth between them 'til the transition doesn't screw up my brain.

This video is about a guy who learned after 8 months of serious effort how to ride a bicycle with the steering reversed. After finally getting it down, he finds that he can no longer ride a normal bicycle. It is very interesting and I'll repeat the link here. It speaks exactly to the difficulties we face learning the different orientations.

http://utmnews.com/every-person-who...s-mind-blowing/

(link is now fixed)

Wayne

I love the smell of nitro in the morning.
RIP Roman

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06-02-2015 04:28 AM  3 years agoPost 27
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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I can't always see the rotor disc
Funny, I had that same problem with 450 helis.

So, I got a L600SX, and it was amazing...."I can see the disc".

For this reason, I can't get too big........

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06-02-2015 04:35 AM  3 years agoPost 28
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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The transition to forward inverted is still tough though.
Can you fly a plank inverted?

For some reason, if you can fly a plank inverted, that will translate to flying a heli in inverted FFF....with a plank, you can fly around inverted and only the elev. is reversed...no need for the left stick in M2 Tx...so we got the 1 hand mastered...lol

In contrast that a heli in inverted RFF is just.....weird....lol
for former plankers....

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06-03-2015 04:23 AM  3 years agoPost 29
Einzelganger

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Campbell, Texas

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Can you fly a plank inverted?
Sure. I fly planks inverted very well.....sometimes the entire flight.
However, I hazard to say that if I practiced flying the plank backwards and inverted for quite a while, 'til it felt natural, going back to forward inverted would require a lot of concentration just after transition.
For any of you who have operated machinery that requires reverse steering, for instance, narrow aisle lift trucks, that is another fantastic example of body memory causing trouble.
When I spent my first 8 hour shift learning reverse steering on a narrow aisle lift truck, I had to drive my truck home with my left hand because the right hand kept heading me for the ditch and then making the wrong correction. Talk about a sick feeling in the pit of your stomach......realizing that you suddenly can't steer a truck after driving for 11 years......sober.
EE, you are right. Backwards inverted is just weird.

Wayne

I love the smell of nitro in the morning.
RIP Roman

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06-03-2015 04:35 AM  3 years agoPost 30
GREYEAGLE

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Flat Land's

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Same Exact Boat ! 35 Year's of Plank's and now I jump back and forth -

Muscle memory and Instinct and imprinting can raise havoc!
Jumping from one to the other all day.

Gimi dat a ONE

I have seen some AMAZING COLD Hand's Focus : Stuff I've only seen in two other Men in 35 Year's. Not bashing air either - Just pure ballet.

So far just practices a couple disciplines - A VERY Full LIFE !

Reverse motion figure 8's exact speed and Exact perfect altitude then reverse the motion and Not fast - precision work around the corners - not off a foot either . Just like going around grade markers ! Lift em up when you find em !

Then How you do that - It's EASY

Butt HEad !

Tell you how bad my muscle memory and instinct is -- from Plank's :

I gave up rolling Helicopter's - That wicked thumb takes over - then it's almost a Vapor Lock ! Need to leave it off the Stick ? Impossible !

greyeagle

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06-07-2015 07:05 PM  3 years agoPost 31
Heli Fanatix

rrVeteran

Fountain Valley, CA

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I have been mentoring prospective Heli pilots to fly after I was proficient with Advance 3D Maneuvers. Radio Control and most recreational activities are Eye to Hand Coordination Activity. There is a lot more that is involved and there are concepts we must comprehend:

- Flying an RC Airplane is not like a RC Car
- Flying an RC Heli is not like an RC Airplane
- It's quite a challenge for real life Heli pilots learning to fly RC Heli's
- but it is easier for a RC Heli pilot to learn to fly a real Helicopter

* Certain concepts can be transferred but understanding concepts, physics and psychology (behavior and characteristics) of the human mind is the key. That is why we say it just "clicked" one day....B/C you figured it out. Now how long it takes to "click" is dependent.

That is why when you fly an RC airplane and than a RC Heli, you can do maneuvers that apply to both but what happens when you fly backwards for either inverted or upright? Now that doesn't apply to airplanes and if you have relayed heavily on your airplane experience but don't grasp the concept of heli's, you are going to have to acquire the skills. Can't do it just to do it. That I why I love it when I hear:

- imagine you are in the cockpit

So you are in a FPV Aspect. When you fly backwards ... So you put your hand across the seat and look over your shoulder (as though you are backing up a car?). But if you were to know what does what ... Visualize the Heli in its entirety. That would help tremendously!

- I don't want to fly smack 3D

As uninteresting as it is for some ... It is actually really hard b/c it requires a high level of proficiency, coordination and quick reflexes. Now you can cut corners and do left-hand or right-handed maneuvers. Not learning all the orientations will be a sudden shocker if you are caught in that position (we will get to this phenomenon shortly). I find smack 3D a sort of "TEST YOUR MIGHT" ... But like all maneuvers ... When same maneuver is done over and over, very unappealing. But to be fair, some smack 3D hardcore pilots find themselves thinking about it when flying smooth 3D or circuits. Reason why I believe is b/c of the constant banging of the stick vs smooth deliberate precise inputs. Higher HS covers up flaws in maneuvers where as smooth lower HS 3D requires precision inputs and complete understanding of the maneuver. I just muscle it around.
It could also be true in the case where a smooth 3D pilots have to think about the fast pace hardcore 3D. Have you ever done Tic Toc's very fast in the very beginning when learning? You are tic-ing but not toc-ing? Heli ends up really far? Than go back to doing other maneuvers... And It's all over the place? You are going 120% and than back to 50-60%. It's hard for some to compensate and manage, both are different style of flying that requires different type of input. So flying isn't all the same.

When it comes to learning to fly a RC Heli ... It is very difficult. You are using 4 controls at once. Understand what individual controls and physics of the Heli is the key. If you know what you need to do to get the Heli to do when you want, than the battle is half over. You have to mix the controls ... That is why some work on stall turns than progress to momentum turns. It breaks up the controls independently until you are ready to mix it together. Often heli pilot transitioning from airplane will not use rudder on a momentum turn where as Heli use ALOT of rudder. If someone was going off of experience vs knowing what commands to input, there will be some set backs.

Pirouetting flips are the Holy Grile of the Heli World ... It requires all four controls and complete understand of pyshics, to know when to give input.

As for learning a maneuver and than forgetting it. That depends with the individual. If you can comprehend, recall and process efficiently ... You are at an advantage. If you need to think about it , you have to work on acquiring the skills through correct practice. Also, quantity is not the key ... It's actually the enemy. Hours on the SIM doesn't mean progression ... Sometimes it can cause regression. In the case where you are flying inverted backwards for 1/2 hr (I'm using a conservative number)... Than Stumble a bit flying upright fast forward. The transition requires knowing what to do, how to setup, execute and following through. You are caught in wonderment b/c from being too focus and fixated on a previous maneuver. Means your level of proficient has not caught up to your desired maneuver.

The key is correct intervals on maneuvers and sequencing.

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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Why I'm having trouble learning Fast Backwards Inverted.
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