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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Fbl control question
04-06-2015 02:41 AM  6 years ago
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Cobra 46

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Cambridge il usa

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Fbl control question
Just how much stabilization does a v bar give a heli ??
Is it as much as the V-plane gives a plane ?? That video looks impressive!
Remember I just got back into Helis after a 16 yr break , my heli flys the same as the old days as far as I'm concerned but I might not have my gains high enough ! If I let go of the cyclic it won't just stay in that attitude,
Is it supposed to??? The tail stays at the last input ( head holding we used to call it) but my cyclic doesn't do that ! Sorry if this is a goofy question!
But like I tell my apprentices at work " if you want to learn there are no dumb questions "
Thanks
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04-06-2015 03:23 AM  6 years ago
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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It makes my 550 logo, 600e trex and 700n stable enough that when I put them into a solid hover I can let go of my tx and they will just sit there if that helps any.
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04-06-2015 03:37 AM  6 years ago
Cobra 46

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Ok that helps some. Do you run more gain in hover that foreword flight ?
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04-06-2015 03:42 AM  6 years ago
tyfast27

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No the gain stays the same weather hovering, fast forward flight or 3D! As long as it's setup properly it's mostly plug and play with a few minor tweaks here and there
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04-06-2015 03:54 AM  6 years ago
ICUR1-2

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Ottawa, Ontario

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fbl's works the same as avcs they aren't meant to work as a co-pilot ( auto level) unless that feature is included.
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04-06-2015 03:59 AM  6 years ago
Cobra 46

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What brought this thought to mind was the video of the vplane for v-bar and how it holds the plank in position
http://www.vstabi.info/en/node/1908
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04-06-2015 04:47 AM  6 years ago
AWittleWabbit

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O.C., CA

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No noticeable change in attitude unless told to do so, unlike my wife

Same response, same rate change for a given command at any part of the envelope!

Gotta love it

Have you set up bankswitching? Its easy to compare changes to your gains that way.
Heli-itis sufferer.
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04-06-2015 05:01 AM  6 years ago
Cobra 46

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No I have not set up banks switch and I don't know if I can with my FBL.
I didn't mean to mislead anyone. I only have the
JR TAGS 01 controler but I keep hearing they are all similer in operation .
But when I seen the vplane video it got me wondering if I was missing somthing .
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04-06-2015 05:23 AM  6 years ago
dahld

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Bakersfield, CA, USA

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V-Plane and V-Bar work the same in that no mixing is required in the transmitter to get the model to "fly straight".

As an example, prior to V-bar and the flybarless revolution, you had to mix control inputs in the TX to get the heli to loop without corkscrewing, and roll on axis etc.

Same with V-Plane. Until now, to get an airplane to "fly straight and pure", you had to rely on TX mixing...like in knife-edge flight; you've got to mix ailerons and elevator to rudder, in order to get the model to stay in knife-edge once you put it there...and that mixing is really only a ball-park setting, as variables change constantly in flight.

And thrust angles had to be perfect to get up and down lines straight due to torque changes resulting in power / throttle changes...the list goes on and on.

But with V-Plane, each axis stays where you put it (like the tail on a heli), until you command it to move again. No mixing in the TX at all...it's all done on-board through the V-Plane software and the three axis gyro system (same as used with the V-Bar).

I've got the system on a 90mm EDF jet, and once it spoils you, there's no going back to the old ways (like few still fly helis with flybars anymore)

My son Kyle is producing more videos on the system as we speak, to help get the system introduced and the word out. It's pretty cool, and the features of the V-Control system as a whole are pretty top-shelf.

(-: Dave Dahl
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04-06-2015 05:59 AM  6 years ago
EEngineer

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TX

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With regards to "knife-edge" flight, with having to add aileron "mix"...

If your pattern ship exhibits "proverse" roll with the application of rudder(i.e. right rudder causes right roll)...or "adverse" roll(right rudder causes left roll).

Rather than using mix, the basic problem is that the wing dihedral is either too much(proverse roll effect)....or to little(adverse roll effect).

It's not that difficult to change the dihedral....even by slightly bending the wing tube....

With a heli, it seems different.

Also, with regards to "pitching" to the aircraft's "belly or canopy" in knife edge flight....one can adjust the wing/tail incidence to mitigate these effects before having to use mixing.

In contest pattern, gyros aren't allowed...

My point is, that the better a heli is mechanically setup, the better that the FBL will operate.

And less "trim" will be required.
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04-06-2015 12:22 PM  6 years ago
Cobra 46

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So with a FBL system I should be able to put my heli in an upright forward flight and hands off the cyclic ?? Or inverted and then hands of ?? It should stay at the attitude just like the tail will ?? I guess that's what I'm asking . Remember I've not seen anyone fly a FBL in person yet but me.
(I know not knife edge because of no control surface like a plane )
So I'm trying to see what my goal is for set up . The tail I understand because HH gyros ( CSM) came out right befor I stopped flying .
Sorry if I'm thick headed on this 😁😁
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04-06-2015 02:36 PM  6 years ago
dahld

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@ EEngineer,

Everything you said is true, and the pattern guys must strive for the "perfect airframe and mechanical set-up", because stabilization is indeed against the rules in F3A.

But V-Plane is not going to be marketed to the "dedicated competition crowd" (which is a good thing, because their numbers are few).

I fly with pattern guys that will spend 5,000 on a super high end pattern plane, and STILL have to mix the crap out of it to get it to fly like they want. For those guys, the pursuit of perfection IS the reason they play.

Most everyone else just wants to have fun

I'm with you about airplanes and helis being as perfectly set-up from the start as you can make them. Anything will fly better in the end when the least amount of technology is needed to get it there.

(-: Dave
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04-08-2015 04:50 AM  6 years ago
EEngineer

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TX

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Dave, along those lines, with regards to helis...I use swash/grip link turnbuckles to get the rotorhead setup as close as I can.

Have heard all the talk that TB's aren't necessary(the FBL will "take care of it"....extra $ for little return...etc.

How can an FBL controller determine that your head setup is "off"?
The FBL can only do what it can, in spite of a "lousy" aligned head...

I use the FBL Mikado TB assemblies now, before Lundsford RC car TBs, with better results than with 1T links....when setting the rotorhead on the bench.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

Thanks for your insight.
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04-09-2015 01:59 AM  6 years ago
Jacoub

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Kuwait

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dahld
Well, I am not a fan of Mikado, I just tried one silverline on my gasser and it doesn't handle the vibration that much, BUT I had 2x100cc, 3 50cc and one 30cc gas planes, from composite to Pilot RC brand, and there is no thing that doesn't need a TX Mixing, specially the engine angular for thrust.

So thank you so much for adding this gyro for planes, it will make the world deference.

And I will order the new Vbar as well to be the replacement for my MSHbrain
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04-09-2015 02:06 AM  6 years ago
Jacoub

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Kuwait

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dahld
And if you can add a sticky to your website that contains the gains and setting for each model to be the starting piont, you can study each model by a professional piolt, not just adding the agility model size (which is it fine).
you can know the best seller and the most common brands.

I have seen this in Spirit FBL and really like it.

Let's make the Vbar the best 3d rescue governed FBL unit
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04-09-2015 05:46 AM  6 years ago
dahld

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@ EEngineer

TB's are nice, and I'm a stickler for getting the swash level and the links and the pitch settings as close to perfection on the bench as I can before the first flight. They usually fly "right off the bench" that way.

Kyle on the other hand, with so much building that he does and limited time to do it, gets it "pretty close" on the bench with the stock links, and then tunes in the air as required. Works for him...but drives me crazy

It all just depends on how different guys approach the hobby...some being anal about the details, and some not so much.

(-: Dave
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04-09-2015 06:04 AM  6 years ago
EEngineer

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TX

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TB's are nice, and I'm a stickler for getting the swash level and the links and the pitch settings as close to perfection on the bench as I can before the first flight. They usually fly "right off the bench" that way.
I am the same way....and I take my time on the bench setup.

It's really nice, with the first flight on a newly built heli, that the blade tracking is dead on...in addition to knowing that one has equal max collective pitch deflection relative to mid-stick.

Using TB's, I seem to never have to make a link adjustment....consistently from heli build to heli build.

For me, I feel TB's are worth the extra expense...plus ease of proper mechanical head setup.

Thanks for your feedback on this "touchy" subject....
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04-09-2015 12:06 PM  6 years ago
Cobra 46

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Cambridge il usa

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So with a FBL system I should be able to put my heli in an upright forward flight and hands off the cyclic ?? Or inverted and then hands of ?? It should stay at the attitude just like the tail will ?? I guess that's what I'm asking . Remember I've not seen anyone fly a FBL in person yet but me.
(I know not knife edge because of no control surface like a plane )
So I'm trying to see what my goal is for set up . The tail I understand because HH gyros ( CSM) came out right befor I stopped flying .
Sorry if I'm thick headed on this 😁😁
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04-09-2015 04:01 PM  6 years ago
dahld

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Bakersfield, CA, USA

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Well, it won't fly itself but yes, each axis is stabilized, and stays where you put it until you input control again. Get the disc perfectly level in forward flight, and it will fly off into the horizon on it's own.

Or as an example, get the disc perfectly level in fast forward flight, pull on the aft cyclic, and loops are on-track without aileron corrections.

But note that in a hover, the heli still won't stay totally in position hands off. The heli's attitude remains the same, but it will still drift with the wind, or move in the direction of the disc that isn't perfectly level (hard to get the disc perfectly level, even though it looks like it is).

As an example, Kyle rarely makes adjustments to the V-Bar with the heli on the ground anymore. With the V-Control and its ability to make all adjustments on the heli's V-Bar from the transmitter, Kyle just puts the heli in a level slow forward flight orientation, and then takes his eyes totally off the heli, makes the desired adjustment(s) on the TX, confident that the heli isn't going anywhere. When the adjustment(s) are done, the heli is still pretty much in the same place he left it.

(-: Dave
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04-09-2015 05:19 PM  6 years ago
rcflyerheli

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Granbury, TX USA

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So with a FBL system I should be able to put my heli in an upright forward flight and hands off the cyclic ?? Or inverted and then hands of ?? It should stay at the attitude just like the tail will ?? I guess that's what I'm asking . Remember I've not seen anyone fly a FBL in person yet but me.
(I know not knife edge because of no control surface like a plane )
So I'm trying to see what my goal is for set up . The tail I understand because HH gyros ( CSM) came out right befor I stopped flying .
I think as I read this I hear you saying that you want the cyclic to act in a similar manner as a tail control. I don't think the basic stabilization algorithms work that way. On a heli, only that tail control algorithm is set up to hold a heading (if it is in HH mode). In rate mode the tail stabilization seems that it would be just like the cyclic stabilization. I admit that I don't really know how the algorithms work, just that I think that is what it's doing.

On an aircraft the gyro uses the basic aerodynamic stability of the plane, and then essentially adds the tail control HH algorithm to each flight axis to stop any unwanted movement about that axis while in flight.
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Fbl control question
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