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HomeScale✈️AircraftScale HeliScale Helicopter Main Discussion Docs  Airwolf Turbine - My Build
11-08-2015 10:16 PM  4 years ago
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Good the know you found it.
Just for note - Jakadofdky always recommend large bore felt filters only.

I also have some suggestions for your CGY750 settings, I'll email them over in the next day or so.

modtron
Oxford UK
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11-09-2015 01:24 AM  4 years ago
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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Thank you VERY much Nigel. I really appreciate the help.

Felt/paper style filter will only be used from this point forward.

Looking forward to your suggestions with the CGY750. It is giving me fits with this model for some reason (the CGY has always worked perfectly for me since it came out - so I am very confused on why it, me and the Wolf are not getting along).
Steve
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11-09-2015 01:56 AM  4 years ago
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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All righty then. Got another minor issue. Well, not sure if it is an issue or not and that is why I am posting. I noticed some "significant" play of the inner swash. See video below. This is with the radio on. You see the inner swash has quite a bit of play relative to the outer swash. This play results in about 0.3 - 0.5 degrees of pitch change at the main blade. From below, you can see what appears to be the inner race flopping around. Is this bad? Should this be replaced? Thoughts, opinions, advice all welcomed. Thanks.

Watch at YouTube

Steve
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11-09-2015 06:52 PM  4 years ago
Copter Doctor

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i say if in doubt, change it out. unless a new one has the same amount of play, I wouldn't take the chance. You have put too much time and work into this to overlook what may be a bad thing.
If a new one still has unacceptable play, maybe a different brand is in order. personally, that looks like maybe too much play for me.
drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft
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11-09-2015 07:16 PM  4 years ago
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Totally unacceptable - get Joe to send it back to Germany - not the first time for this with Vario and it gets very exciting when it decides to come out in the air !

modtron
Oxford UK
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11-09-2015 08:01 PM  4 years ago
ICUR1-2

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Ottawa, Ontario

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if this model was a Blade cp that would be normal.
otherwise upgrade time
spending time, paying attention
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11-09-2015 10:52 PM  4 years ago
doorman

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Sherwood, Arkansas

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Replace It...
I am with all the others... and don't want to see what it does when it comes apart!!
Pretty sure that one got missed by qc department!!
Stan
AMA 2918-Team Spin Blades,,Castle Creations, Unique Aircraft
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11-15-2015 03:22 AM  4 years ago
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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Ugh. Frustration is starting to set in. Just cant get Wolfie flying worth a dang. It will not settle down and sit in a hover, it is not smooth, it does not react linearly to control inputs, it is just "difficult" to control. I have zero confidence while flying. I can not put the heli where I want it, the heli just wobbles and wanders all over the place.

Video of one of today's flights. I dont mean to toot my own horn, but I am much better pilot than what this shows. This is all the helicopter doing it's own thing. I just cant "control" it........

Watch at YouTube

I tried different settings last week, no good. Tried a BUNCH of different things today, no good. Gonna give it one more go with a completely new setup tomorrow. After today's debacle, I came home and started from scratch:

Reinstalled CGY750 firmware V1.31
Reset all menus/settings to default.
Remounted the sensor and added a steel plate under the sensor. Used VHB clear tape, then a 3mm steel plate, VHB clear tape, then sensor. Maybe some weird vibes are getting to the sensor, I dont know - just trying anything at this point. Sensor is mounted on the top of the mechanics just in front of the main shaft.
Going to try a setup that is foreign to me - in that I have always set my heli's up with 0 degrees of pitch at mid stick. Gonna try a setup that modtron has posted a couple of times. Servo arms horizontal at mid stick. With stick still at midpoint, adjusted pitch links from swash to blade grips to give 4 degrees of positive pitch. Then with stick still at midpoint, adjusted AIL RATE to give an additional 10 degrees of cyclic (so pitch gauge gave a reading of 14 degrees) (I ended up with a setting of 44%in the CGY750 menu) - copied this setting for the elevator. With stick still at midpoint, reduced dual rates to give 7 degrees of cyclic (so pitch gauge gave a reading of 11 degrees). No expo. Max collective is set to 12 degrees. Gonna start with gains at 60%. Today I had to crank the gains down to 35% to get the wobbles out of it. Not good at all.

I also for the hell of it changed the governor setting of the Jaka from the default of "Medium" to "Soft".

I have never had a heli not fly well within the first 2 or 3 test flights, so this is new territory for me. I take pride in my builds, consider myself to be a meticulous builder, someone who pays attention to the details, spends lots of time making sure the "bench" setup is perfect, so when I go to the field, the heli usually flys pretty dang well right off the bat. Wolfie is just killing me.

If tomorrow doesnt go well, I will be officially beaten and utterly and completely lost as to what to do. Remove my beloved CGY750 and try a Demon 3X?? Remove the Heli-factory head and try a different head (Goblin HPS2 head or Vario or ?????) Raise the white flag and sell it and move on to the MB-105 build??

Gonna get some sleep, change the oil in my wifes vehicle tomorrow morning, mulch the leaves, clean out the gutters, put away the garden hose, get the snow blower ready, eat some lunch and go give Wolfie one more chance. I honestly do not have high hopes it will fly any differently tomorrow than it did today, but we will see.
Steve
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11-15-2015 05:11 AM  4 years ago
Double E

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Atlanta, GA

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Steve,

Hang in there. I'm sure your helicopter can be set up to fly well.

Believe me, I understand how disheartening it can be when you can't figure out what needs to be changed to make it fly properly. You've got lots of experienced people on this forum that can help.

Once I get m Huey in the air, I'll let you know what I think about the Demon 3X.
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11-15-2015 05:16 AM  4 years ago
Copter Doctor

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man I feel your pain, sometimes the challenge gets to be a challenge.
I know dialing the flybarless units in can be a challenge, (thry are for me and is why I haven't really given them a chance) and like you are doing, starting again from the beginning might just be the thing to do.
drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft
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11-15-2015 09:23 AM  4 years ago
BEAR

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Peterborough

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I've no idea about flybarless but when I look at the video the heli is still siting very nose high. Would more head speed help ?
I'm not a scale guy so just throwing ideas out there.
Please don't give up I've been enjoying this thread
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11-15-2015 10:31 AM  4 years ago
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Hi Steve,

Ok, you have many issues going on here, so lets try to sort you out.....

You have the correct gearing on the Jakadofsky - 27T clutch bell, so the rpm and gearing is correct for this rotor diameter.
Put all of the settings in the ECU back to where they should be.
The operational rotor speed is in the 962 range or there about's.

I see you using the Heli-factory rotor head.
What type of damping does it have - hard or soft ?
You need to have the soft damping for this model.

The turbine Airwolf is a heavy machine at best.
The overall collective range should be ...
Low + 0 degrees
Hover = +6 degrees
High = + 12 degrees

Now for the CGY750....

Put everything back to default settings.
Use v1.31 firmware
HeliSize to 750 - More
Use Flight mode 3
This now pre sets all of your required initial adjustments - damping and expo's etc now being set in the CGY750.

Setting up.....
With the collective stick in the mid / hover position, now adjust all of the servo arm to be level to be each other and square to the servo cases.
Use the neutral values in the 750 to adjust for position if required.

Do not move the stick now until instructed to do so.

Now adjust linkages from servo's to swashplate to get a level swashplate.
Now adjust the linkages from the swashplate to the blade holder to give +6 degrees.

Now use the collective stick and set the collective range by adjusting the Pitch Rate value in the 750 to give the required amount of travel from 0 to +12.
Typical value between 30 to 40 percent.

I normally adjust this value to give the required LOW pitch range first. Sometimes it can mean that there is more at the HGH end than required. This can be adjusted in the Pitch Curve of the transmitter.

Now, set any PHASING adjustment of the swashplate if required.

Now put the collective stick back into the mid / hover position again and do not move it.

Now the operational range for the GYRO needs to be set.
With 1 blade mounted over the centre line/tail boom, adjust the aileron rate % in the 750 to give and additional 9 degrees of travel.
So with a hover pitch of +6, moving the aileron stick left and right would give pitch values of -3 to +15 degrees.
When set, copy this value into the elevator rate %.

Now the operational range for FLYING needs to be set.
Using the Dual Rate values in the transmitter, reduce the travel for each of the cyclics to give a range of +/- 5 degrees when the stick is moved from end to end.
So with a hover value of +6, left and right aileron would give values of +1 to +11 degrees.
When set, copy this value into the elevator dual rate.

You have a preset EXPO value already in the CGY750 - around -40%.
You can add to this if required by using the Expo setting in the transmitter, BUT it will not feel the same as putting it into the CGY750 itself.
If you add any additional EXPO, do it in very SMALL amounts as this value will be compounded on top of the built in value already being used.

The importance of trimming cannot be emphasized enough.

I would normally start with gyro gains around 70-80 % for NORM and 70-80 % for AVCS.

Lift off in NORM mode and only HOVER - no flying around or anything else, just hover into any wind that is present.
Take time to trim the model for as stable a hover as you can get using the transmitter trims.

During this time YOU WILL be fighting the thrust from the turbine exhaust.
Don't care what anyone tells you, you will be fighting this !

You now need to spend time getting the feel for what is going on - it may be tail heavy - it may be the thrust or it may be trim.
You will have to work out what it causing it to move around once you have it trimmed.

Now land and toggle your Gyro Gain switch to store your trim values into the CGY750.

Now take off again, but this time in AVCS mode.

You should now be in a much more stable hover but with the machine needing your inputs to remain stationary.

At this time, you may want to change the Gyro gain values to your own liking, or even adjust the Dual Rate values for control feel that you are more comfortable with.

The above is exactly what I do with big heavy scale models and have never had ANY problems so far - v1.31 is far better suited to this type of model.

If you want to get a feel of the thrust issue before going back over this, try to borrow a Vario VR22 head with flybar.
It will give you the background stability to fly it, while getting used to the thrust and balance of the machine.

Hope this all helps.

Nigel

modtron,
Oxford UK
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11-15-2015 12:16 PM  4 years ago
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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Thanks a ton Nigel.

I have set the heli up per your instructions - I did that yesterday afternoon after I came back from not enjoying flying. All that is left to do is go fly today with those new settings.

You mentioned the Heli-factory head and damping. I asked this very question when I bought it. I was told it has, and I quote,

"Yes dampening is very critical. It varies with the type of blades, rpm, weight of helicopter and specially number of blades. The aluminum M- Blades are very flexible compared to carbon blades. The 2 blade head combined with soft blades requires a hard dampening. The head here will have hard delrin bushings... Almost stiff. The feeling will be good. " So I guess my head is very stiffly dampened (and it sure does feel stiff as a rock). I am using Viper-X aluminum blades for these tests.

Maybe I have a head - blade incompatibility issue?
Steve
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11-15-2015 12:25 PM  4 years ago
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Hi Steve,

Ian (sats) had exactly the same problems with his head using the hard dampers and GRP blades - he changed them over to the soft ones and bingo, all was ok !

The head / blade combination is very important.
I have only used M-Blades, never used the Viper X ones.

modtron
Oxford UK
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11-15-2015 12:35 PM  4 years ago
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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Hi Steve,
Ian (sats) had exactly the same problems with his head using the hard dampers and GRP blades - he changed them over to the soft ones and bingo, all was ok !
The head / blade combination is very important.
I have only used M-Blades, never used the Viper X ones.
modtron
Oxford UK
Well, I hope it is my problem; but it does really suck, especially since I thought I was being proactive when I ordered the head and asking the vendor about dampening, to make sure I was getting the correct "item" since this was my first go at a large heavy model with aluminum blades.

Ugh.
Steve
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11-15-2015 12:42 PM  4 years ago
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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It's interesting that when using Vario heads with either their GRP or Viper X blades, the damping stays the same.

modtron
Oxford UK
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11-16-2015 02:42 AM  4 years ago
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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Well folks, I am going to try something truly demonic with regard to getting Wolfie flying right. Gonna take the "red pill" if you will. I'm determined to get this heli flying "properly". Prolly will take a couple of weeks and will of course keep you all updated. In the meantime, I think I might get started on some exterior prep/detailing of the doghouse, and empennage modifications.

Thanks a TON for all the help so far! I gotta figure out to repay ya'll.
Steve
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11-22-2015 01:32 AM  4 years ago
Dingo07

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Irvine, CA - USA

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How goes it Steve?

Progress?
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11-22-2015 02:21 AM  4 years ago
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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How goes it Steve?
Progress?
Greetings!

Thanks for checking in!

Zero progress, but it is somewhat self-imposed. And to be honest, I have enjoyed the "time off" from Airwolf. The difficulty I was having getting the CGY750 to fly comfortably was really dragging me down.

Am waiting on delivery of some new "stuff" to try to see if I can get it flying more comfortably. Wouldnt have been able to do anything this weekend anyway as we got our first snow today (ugh!) and tomorrow is forecast as a HIGH of 30F. WAY too cold for me to go out and fly - I'm a warm weather wuss LOL!

Maybe next weekend Mother Nature will be nice to me and we will give it a go and see if the new "stuff" helps with the flying characteristics. Am looking forward to the test.

Regardless, I will be starting exterior prep and detailing soon. Have to totally redo the vertical stab, the winglets and horizontal stab as they are are Bell 430 profiles (Airwolf is of course a Bell 222), and scratch building the chain guns should be fun! Not sure the wife is going to appreciate all the body work sanding in the house though LOL!!! She may kill me before I get to see Airwolf finished LOL!
Steve
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11-29-2015 08:17 PM  4 years ago
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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Well it's been awhile.

First off, I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving weekend!!

Now the Wolf......

CGY750 out. Bavarian Demon in. Test flew the Demon over the weekend. We had awful weather and I picked the worst possible day to try the Demon for the first time. Any sane person would NOT have attempted a maiden on a day like I did; but hey, I have never claimed to be "normal" LOL!

Winds were a constant 15-17mph with gusts well over 20mph. But I am a part time semi-professional amateur test pilot, so it was nothing but a thing for me :-).

I did two flights. First flight was with out the box stock settings. Head gain at 55%, tail gain at 60%. Second flight I upped the head gain to 60%, just for the fun of it. There was no point in actually trying to do any "tuning" in these conditions, and that was not my goal anyway. It was simply a test to see if it "felt" any different/better than the CGY750. I gotta say, it felt really good even with stock settings. For sure it needs some fine tuning, but immediately I felt more connected, more in control and never really felt like I was "behind" in input. I felt as if I could put the heli where I wanted (even in the high winds I was dealing with). The Demon did nothing weird. I am happy with the result and I think in calmer conditions, some minor fine tuning, and a little more stick time, I will end up with a big heavy heli that is going to be a really decent flier. I am still dealing with the funky high frequency ground shake during spool up (you can see it in Flight #1). I dont much care for that. Seems I need more positive pitch during spool up (Flight #2 I was around 3 degrees during spool up and it was definitely better - just seems weird needing that much pitch during spool up - I'm afraid the heli will roll over LOL!).

So, I am actually kind of glad I was able to test the Demon in the high winds. It was a solid test that showed me it just works better than the CGY750 (for me, in this heli, with my hardware).

Started the body work as well and will be posting my adventures with that before too long. Trying to get the holes lined up in the doghouse for the exhaust before I start cutting is kicking me in the butt!

Bavarian Demon test flights vid for your viewing pleasure!!!

Watch at YouTube

Steve
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