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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › my first 4 rotor scale build maiden advice
03-17-2015 11:35 PM  3 years agoPost 1
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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i have a bit of tail wag going to try to lower the gain more and if that does not work ill replace the goteck 9257 tail servo all else looks dandy
thank you bob0 and rr and rr members for your help

Watch at YouTube

Insha Allah made in america

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03-18-2015 05:11 AM  3 years agoPost 2
jimmymc2286

rrApprentice

Commiskey, Indiana USA

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My KBar did the same thing on my 600n. I lowered the gain and it got worse. Raised it and it locks in great.

Jimmy, If it looks like a heli I like it.

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03-18-2015 05:17 AM  3 years agoPost 3
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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thanks jim ill give that a try

Insha Allah made in america

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03-22-2015 02:08 AM  3 years agoPost 4
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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jimmymc2286
i tried what you recommended didnt work thanks for the avice

i believe im going to need a 9g tail servo i think there is a problem
with the resolution from the servo horn going to try a micro tail servo

Watch at YouTube

Insha Allah made in america

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03-22-2015 11:47 AM  3 years agoPost 5
Dappe Bronco

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Belgium

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Why would you want to fly a scale bird with HH. Recipe for disaster...

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03-22-2015 02:36 PM  3 years agoPost 6
jimmymc2286

rrApprentice

Commiskey, Indiana USA

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[quote]Dappe Bronco

Why would you want to fly a scale bird with HH. Recipe for disaster...

You got my attention. I to know very little about scale but have 2. What will happen flying with HH.

wc_wickedclown, I like the way you think, No dought you will get it figured out.

Jimmy, If it looks like a heli I like it.

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03-22-2015 03:40 PM  3 years agoPost 7
kthane

rrVeteran

Pensacola

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That is not a high p gain wag. It's my tail servo is way too slow or i have pan cake syrup on tail shaft wag. You may want to investgate raising the d gain on your tail. Anything you can do on the Kbar to soften acceleration and deceleration of tail. That wobbling scale mess of a tail will never tolerate being setup tighter than a banjo string.

Uhh, so I tried to look at what setting the Kbar has. Doesn't look there is a D gain. Assuming you already tried just raising the tail gain, you should have acceleration, stop gain, and sensor dead band to play with (I think).

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03-22-2015 09:07 PM  3 years agoPost 8
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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kthane
That is not a high p gain wag. It's my tail servo is way too slow or i have pan cake syrup on tail shaft wag. You may want to investgate raising the d gain on your tail. Anything you can do on the Kbar to soften acceleration and deceleration of tail. That wobbling scale mess of a tail will never tolerate being setup tighter than a banjo string.
Uhh, so I tried to look at what setting the Kbar has. Doesn't look there is a D gain. Assuming you already tried just raising the tail gain, you should have acceleration, stop gain, and sensor dead band to play with (I think).
thank you ive been thinking about adjusting these gains ill give it a try

Insha Allah made in america

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03-23-2015 12:34 AM  3 years agoPost 9
ssmith512

rrKey Veteran

Indianapolis, IN USA

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Make absolutely certain your flexible tail pushrod is SUPER smooth and of course all of your tail linkage is smooth as well.. And also make absolutely certain that the outer sheath does not move anywhere along it's length (and especially near the ends), when in use.

Tail wags can be very frustrating for sure!

Steve

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03-23-2015 12:46 AM  3 years agoPost 10
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

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Why would you want to fly a scale bird with HH. Recipe for disaster...

Amazes me why people make such claims, it is not a recipe for disaster, I fly all my scale machines in HH it makes no difference,
even those in the past that have had multibladed heads, just need a good tail servo high torque and not necessarily a fast one as you aren't doing 3D snap manoeuvres.

On mine I have used various servos ranging from 9Kilo up to 35kilo on my 1/5 scale models..

here is my 1/5 scale flown in HH

Watch at YouTube

and someone elses

Watch at YouTube

W/C
you mentioned your servo,by adding a multi bladed head you have increased the torque significantly, before changing the servo for a higher torque one have you increased the head speed in small increments ? ..On the video it sounded a very slow sluggish head speed..

EDIT
Just looking around other forums they mention this servo is slow compared to others,

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=540050

Good luck with sorting it..

Matt

All The Best

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03-23-2015 01:22 AM  3 years agoPost 11
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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kthane
That is not a high p gain wag. It's my tail servo is way too slow or i have pan cake syrup on tail shaft wag. You may want to investgate raising the d gain on your tail. Anything you can do on the Kbar to soften acceleration and deceleration of tail. That wobbling scale mess of a tail will never tolerate being setup tighter than a banjo string.
Uhh, so I tried to look at what setting the Kbar has. Doesn't look there is a D gain. Assuming you already tried just raising the tail gain, you should have acceleration, stop gain, and sensor dead band to play with (I think).
MattJen
and thanks matt and omg WOW nice
the i gain did the trick i might lower it a little more but shes looking good thanks brother

Watch at YouTube

Insha Allah made in america

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03-23-2015 01:35 AM  3 years agoPost 12
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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jimmymc2286
wc_wickedclown, I like the way you think, No dought you will get it figured out.
thanks jim you got a new buddy on your list
MattJen
Why would you want to fly a scale bird with HH. Recipe for disaster...
Amazes me why people make such claims, it is not a recipe for disaster, I fly all my scale machines in HH it makes no difference,
even those in the past that have had multibladed heads, just need a good tail servo high torque and not necessarily a fast one as you aren't doing 3D snap manoeuvres.
On mine I have used various servos ranging from 9Kilo up to 35kilo on my 1/5 scale models..
here is my 1/5 scale flown in HH

Watch at YouTube

and someone elses

Watch at YouTube

i got SOME words for you
WOW

HOLY COW

and thank you

Insha Allah made in america

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03-24-2015 08:51 AM  3 years agoPost 13
Dappe Bronco

rrNovice

Belgium

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Amazes me why people make such claims, it is not a recipe for disaster, I fly all my scale machines in HH it makes no difference
When you fly a heavy, big multi blade scale ship, the tail rotor usually has less effect than in a pod and boom or a trainer. A pod and boom is lighter and needs less pitch on the main rotor to fly and thus less opposite reaction from the frame (fuse). Wind also has more effect on a scale ship than on a trainer. Because of this, the tail rotor of a scale ship has a lot more work to do than a trainer.

Difference between HH and normal is that in HH you request a rotation rate by moving the stick. The heli will reply with a nice pirouette, even when there is a lot of wind. The gyro adjust pitch angle to get the desired rotation. In normal mode we directly adjust the pitch angle to get the desired rotation. Because we have to steer all the time there is a sort of feed back. We notice when the wind pushes the tail (fuse) around. The more we need to steer gives us the feed back that we are reaching the mechanical limit. In HH the gyro will keep compensating up to the mechanical stop without giving us any feedback.

In HH if you give a small, maybe unintentional steer command, it might be possible that the remaining power to steer the requested command in forward flight is insufficient because the tail is already near its max deflection. You might end up with a heli that is in forward flight with already a lot of pitch on the tail and a offset neutral. This not only uses a lot of power but might give you some strange reactions when slowing down. When slowing down, the tail might have enough power to make the (earlier) requested rotation and make an unexpected move.

It might be different in smaller overpowered lighter scale models but in heavier multiblade scale ships, HH is absolutely not advised.Vario even "prohibits" HH on some of it's models (like on the fenestrom in the movie).

Aerodynamically you should not hover a big scale ship with wind coming from side or rear. Just like in 1:1 heli it is often prohibited to land if no visual wind indication is available or to hover in any other direction than wind on the nose because of tail authority...

Thanks to Brutus for original text

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03-24-2015 08:55 AM  3 years agoPost 14
Dappe Bronco

rrNovice

Belgium

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just need a good tail servo high torque
IMHO it has nothing to do with torque but just with tail authority...

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03-24-2015 09:16 AM  3 years agoPost 15
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

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WC. The wag looks much better, but half the time the blades are spinning backwards. Should check on that.

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03-24-2015 09:44 AM  3 years agoPost 16
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

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IMHO it has nothing to do with torque but just with tail authority...

sometimes that can be the reason, and there are ways to overcome that...but often the easiest first step apart from upping head speed is to try a higher torque servo.


It might be different in smaller overpowered lighter scale models but in heavier multiblade scale ships, HH is absolutely not advised.Vario even "prohibits" HH on some of it's models (like on the fenestrom in the movie).

My scale turbine Longranger weighed 23kilo when fuelled.. flew and hoverd in HH..no matter which way the wind was blowing, for the scale nationals we flew in 25mph winds. There are reasons why Vario say what they say and I am not going to go into them here..

I don't want to hijack Wicked Clowns thread or take it to a HH v non HH which has been debated so many times in the scale forum and where your long post u copied and pasted has been used, I have flown both types, as when I started flying HH gyros did not exist,
I even learnt to fly a machine without a gyro and learnt to Auto it as well which was fun but a pig...

To say that flying a scale model in HH especially one the size of W/C is a disaster waiting to happen is not good advice and is wrong which what I picked up on.

All The Best

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03-24-2015 11:52 AM  3 years agoPost 17
Dappe Bronco

rrNovice

Belgium

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Indeed no need to hijack thread (Sorry Clown)
Just tried to pass on what i have been told and learned first hand.To each his own idea.

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03-24-2015 12:20 PM  3 years agoPost 18
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

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Agreed, would be boring if we did it all same way.

Clown, really glad you got it sorted, welcome to the dark side lol, once you get the scale bug its hard to get rid of it..
Good luck..

All The Best

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03-24-2015 01:50 PM  3 years agoPost 19
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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i dont mind guys my problem is solved and thank you

Insha Allah made in america

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03-25-2015 02:15 AM  3 years agoPost 20
JEEPWORLD2002/2

rrKey Veteran

Blue Bell, Pa

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No cage fight with the scaler this time. good luck my friend

Trex600n,Trex500,MR25,MikadoLoGo5003d/KDE,Goblin 380XNova,CastleCreations,Ys,JR XG8,Tags Mini XBus Dmss//FAA# FA3NYC9TAP

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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › my first 4 rotor scale build maiden advice
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