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HomeTurbineAircraftHelicopterTurbine Helicopters › 3D Turbine Fuel problems, How should i fix my tank?
01-25-2015 08:11 PM  3 years agoPost 1
Dan MinickrrKey Veteran - Columbus, WI - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Please read this post first then look here of you have further questions---->https://rc.runryder.com/t766315p3/

well today I tore apart my expensive roto tank. Yes, it ruined the internals but it didn't work anyways. I think I spotted, another, part of the problem. Despite talking to the (only) seller of these tanks over the phone he apparently misunderstood what I was asking or just guessed. The o-rings (blue) inside the brass pickup swivel had swollen so bad the clunk could no longer rotate. The kero ruined the tank.

Moving forward I have two different felt clunks and an Os bubbleless. Any problems with felt and kero? Also two different diameter tygon lines. The smaller line is still larger id than the brass tube was so I am not worried about delivery problems. The advantage of the smaller line is that it can fall back towards the stopper side of the tank if necessary. Also do you think I should cut it normal length towards the back of the tank, or cut it so the clunk ends between 1/2 and 3/4 of the way across?



Team Synergy, Team FBL Rotors-------if its not broke...it will be!

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01-25-2015 08:29 PM  3 years agoPost 2
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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I kind of thought the roto tank would be a failure.

As far as the smaller tubing goes, you should be OK. It is a short run. Frictional losses of a tube or pipe are proportional to the tubing length. Look up Manning's equation.

The felt clunk will reduce fuel flow more than the bubbleless clunk. In my experience, felt clunks can get completely blocked by emulsion created if any water is present in the fuel. However, felt does filter better than a bubbleless. I prefer to filter in the fuel can, not the tank.

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01-25-2015 09:38 PM  3 years agoPost 3
Dan Minick

rrKey Veteran

Columbus, WI

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I think the roto tank would be great in a nitro airplane. Just not for this application. Short run, yes. Less than 12" from clunk to fuel pump, including the air trap. I have no issus using an OS but I will probably weight it as its not as heavy as the felt gas types. I need this thing to MOVE!

Surely someone else on here has flown a turbine 3d?

Team Synergy, Team FBL Rotors-------if its not broke...it will be!

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01-26-2015 05:21 AM  3 years agoPost 4
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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You are either brave or have very deep pockets dyecocker1!

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01-26-2015 12:26 PM  3 years agoPost 5
Dan Minick

rrKey Veteran

Columbus, WI

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well its certainly not the first! why is that?

Team Synergy, Team FBL Rotors-------if its not broke...it will be!

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01-26-2015 04:04 PM  3 years agoPost 6
Calil

rrApprentice

Brazil

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Sure there are 3d flyers with wren 44. Now, how they solve the fuel problem I don't know.

Watch at YouTube

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01-26-2015 05:48 PM  3 years agoPost 7
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

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Hope you don't mine me saying, but that looks a bit of a mess..

The synergy tank for the MW44 with fuel tank is ample enough.. you have added complexity to the system.. by adding a double clunk lines, one of which is soldered..

I would rip everything out, and start again,for a start you need bungs and O rings that are kero proof or else they will swell and ruin everything..

Whether you are flying normal ( right way up) or inverted loops and rolls should make no difference to your fuel system if it is built and setup right from day 1.

picking up on some of your comments.

The smaller line is still larger id than the brass tube was so I am not worried about delivery problems.

If I am reading this correctly the fuel tube is bigger in diameter than the brass tube?, if that is the case this will suck in air and cause you to flame out.
I used to slice a bit of tubing and use this as an O ring, this will ensure a tight fit over the brass tube.

You need a tank with a header or air bubble trap, I personally have never used air traps, but a lot use them and they work..

The photos above are of my predator Wren, it has been flown in a full 3D routine all be it a slow F3C type aerobatics, by a very skilled 3D pilot ( not me) the most I ever did was a loop and roll.

The brass tubes go into the fuel tank a little way, so the fuel tube and fuel clunk is free to flap around inside, I have used felt in the past but after reading some posts there have been cases of these breaking apart and clogging up the filter or pump.. ( it has never happened to me) the clunk should be free to drop and flap around inside the tank..

The key is on all nipples and connections they should be airtight, which is where the slicing of the fuel tube into little O rings comes into its own,

Good luck hope you get it sorted..

Matt

All The Best

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01-26-2015 07:15 PM  3 years agoPost 8
Dan Minick

rrKey Veteran

Columbus, WI

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Thanks Matt, some comments on your post to clear up any confusion.
looks a bit of a mess
Yes, now it does. The brass fuel pickup is originally built as one solid assembly, I had to cut it apart to get it out of the tank. I flew the machine several times upright and it drained all the way to the bottom, no air, no issues.
The synergy tank for the MW44 with fuel tank is ample enough.. you have added complexity to the system.. by adding a double clunk lines, one of which is soldered..
This tank is not used in conjunction with the stock tank. The stock tank plus the air trap could only get me 3 min of flight so I needed something a bit bigger. Only one clunk pickup will be in the system.
the fuel tube is bigger in diameter than the brass tube?, if that is the case this will suck in air and cause you to flame out.
I was talking strictly inside diameters. When the yellow tygon is slipped over the brass "nipple" I created it is very tight. I will of course still wire or double up at all connections.
You need a tank with a header or air bubble trap,
I am using a GBR jets CAT air trap inline to the fuel pump.

Do you suggest a fuel dot? Right now I just have a short piece of tubing coming off the air trap, of course plugged when in flight. But I know after fueling a small bit of air resides in that line going to the top end of the trap.

Team Synergy, Team FBL Rotors-------if its not broke...it will be!

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01-29-2015 12:42 AM  3 years agoPost 9
KevinChiu123

rrApprentice

Taipei, Taiwan

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Matt is always the Man!!! Thanks a lot for your sharing experiences with us.
I am wondering that you don't use UAT. Haven't you had any flame out problem/s with this condition?
As far as I know, kerosene will generate bubbles all by itself by going through pumps or during flight (fuel shakes while heli flies).

Dear dyecocker1~

For your reference.......
Wren can use only "BVM" UAT (This is strongly recommended by Wren USA Mr. Ron Ballard and Owner's Manual) ~

Neither Hanson nor BTM works. These 2 brands will make bubbles in the fuel lines. I had flameouts 5 times during flights. However, they work fine with Jetcat. I just don't know why.

In the past, my pump takes fuels from 2 tanks simultaneously~ parallel format. If, any side of fuel line/clunk sucks air, the other side of fuel line/clunk can't suck fuel smoothly.

So, I change my fuel lines in "in-line" format~ one tank after the other.
In this manner, during the first half of flight, there is always one full tank of fuel, no air.

However, the CG might change. But my priority is safety~ Please do not quit on me.

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01-29-2015 01:25 AM  3 years agoPost 10
Dan MinickrrKey Veteran - Columbus, WI - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Yes, "dont quit on me" is a great line to go by when hurling a 5,000$ machine through the air

I would agree that running tanks in parallel is a bad idea for something that requires a very balanced feed. The last scale turbine I had had 3 large tanks in a series, then the air trap. Never had any issues, but that is a different animal.

Here is what I am testing now. I used the smaller diameter Tygon, an OS bubbless clunk, and a starter shaft adapter. If you look closely I ran the wire holding the clunk on up through where the set screw would go so it can not slide back up the tube. These combined give me a "clunk" weight of 16.5 grams. I stuck it together and filled the tank full of kero. I am going to give it a couple days sitting in the shop loosely then tip it every which way and see if I can get the tubing to kink. If not, time for a test flight.

Team Synergy, Team FBL Rotors-------if its not broke...it will be!

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01-29-2015 01:32 AM  3 years agoPost 11
KevinChiu123

rrApprentice

Taipei, Taiwan

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Wait, please.

The yellow tygon will get hard by dipping in kero as time goes by.
Then, the fuel line can't softly flap with the fuel while we fly.

Please make sure that you use the correct fuel line inside tanks.

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01-29-2015 01:35 AM  3 years agoPost 12
Dan Minick

rrKey Veteran

Columbus, WI

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This is real tygon, over a year or so it may degrade just like any other clunk line. Routine maintenance will warn me if its getting stiff. What do you recommend?

Team Synergy, Team FBL Rotors-------if its not broke...it will be!

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01-29-2015 01:37 AM  3 years agoPost 13
KevinChiu123

rrApprentice

Taipei, Taiwan

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I use a soft black fuel lines inside tanks.

I can't tell the name of materials........

Try to figure out for you.......

Or, Matt might know.......

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01-29-2015 01:41 AM  3 years agoPost 14
Dan Minick

rrKey Veteran

Columbus, WI

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No need, I know the stuff. Im not a huge fan, but would consider using it if this approach does not work out. Its called Hayes Tubing

Team Synergy, Team FBL Rotors-------if its not broke...it will be!

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01-29-2015 09:03 AM  3 years agoPost 15
aussieheliguy

rrNovice

Australia

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I use Hanson UAT's on all my Turbines, my Trex800 has had this brand of UAT on it for 5 years without issue, it has close to 140 hours run time on it.

Trex 844 turbine Wren44, MA Razor

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01-29-2015 01:31 PM  3 years agoPost 16
KevinChiu123

rrApprentice

Taipei, Taiwan

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Dear Aussieheliguy:

Good to hear this.

Maybe I had bad luck.........

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01-29-2015 08:55 PM  3 years agoPost 17
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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Be careful with Hayes tubing. It is neoprene and tears easily. If you use it, don't use a wire tie. It will cut it. Instead use a zip tie for securing fuel lines. I would even recommend this for Tygon.

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01-30-2015 01:07 AM  3 years agoPost 18
Calil

rrApprentice

Brazil

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I only use polyurethane. Never used tygon or anything else with kero.

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01-31-2015 09:09 PM  3 years agoPost 19
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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I run 2 tanks in parallel, no issues. I use the BVM UAT, filter the fuel before putting it into the heli.

I'm not a fan of the felt clunks, running gassers I have found the fibers from the felt in the screen filter in the carb. I don't think those fibers would do any good in the burner ring tubes ....

Chris D. Bergen

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02-02-2015 07:07 PM  3 years agoPost 20
Jeff polisena

rrElite Veteran

westpalmbeachflorida usa

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I use a VAT tank and a clunk style with Tygon line in main tank and hard 3D with no issues . I make sure I don't run main tank down to pull from vat . Usually my nerves are shot around 1/2 tank anyways .

I stole it ,flew it and gave it back ;)

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HomeTurbineAircraftHelicopterTurbine Helicopters › 3D Turbine Fuel problems, How should i fix my tank?
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