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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › 600DFC Will not acquire more than 2150 headspeed
01-23-2015 05:17 AM  3 years agoPost 1
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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My cousins helicopter is a stock 600dfc with the 112t slant main, 13t pinion, 510kv 600mx and CC ice 80hv. We set up the castle gov for 2150 rpm idle 2. It calls for 100% throttle. Type in 2200 rpm and it calls for 100% throttle. Clear up to approx. 2400 it just called for 100%. So when he things it at 100% throttle sitting on the shop floor I check the head speed at 2100. Shouldn't full throttle on this bird be like 2400 minimum? This one is totally over my head. My 600 EFL ran at 70% throttle with the same setup at about 2200. Why is this Heli lacking heafspeed and went is the CC setup not warning of minimal overhead? This is a 12s setup with 40c discharge batteries.

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01-23-2015 05:24 AM  3 years agoPost 2
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Did you calibrate the esc to the specific transmitter in use with the model in question?

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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01-23-2015 05:50 AM  3 years agoPost 3
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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Yes we did, I think it ended up at 97% both ways. I was wondering about it not recognizing full throttle on the tx as well but the gov setup in the castle creations throttle tab is calling for 100%. Could there be a bug in the speed control? I'm at a total loss on this one lol

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01-23-2015 01:23 PM  3 years agoPost 4
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Did you tell the CC software that you have a 10 pole motor?

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-23-2015 01:25 PM  3 years agoPost 5
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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Yes it's on 10 poles

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01-23-2015 01:30 PM  3 years agoPost 6
Yellowjacket

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Kennewick Wa.

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Did you enter in the right gear ratio?
112 divided by 13 is 8.61. gear ratio.
And enter in the motor Kv

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01-23-2015 02:33 PM  3 years agoPost 7
Richardmid1

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Leeds, England

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What did you check the HS with? Are you sure he was in IU2?

60% of the time, it works every time!

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01-23-2015 02:39 PM  3 years agoPost 8
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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Yes idle 2, checked head speed with a head speed app on my phone. My phone is consistent with the log on the cc setup.

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01-23-2015 04:58 PM  3 years agoPost 9
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Have to ask. Is the battery you're using happy? Dead cell perhaps?

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-23-2015 05:17 PM  3 years agoPost 10
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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Yep, batteries are all good we've tried multiple packs just to be sure

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01-23-2015 06:50 PM  3 years agoPost 11
don s

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Chesapeake, VA

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Dumb question, but are you saving these rpm changes to the ESC?

CC will always spout off 100% for the max rpm, no matter what rpm you enter.

E820, Raptor G4N, X50F/E, E620, Forza 450, and some planks.

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01-23-2015 06:59 PM  3 years agoPost 12
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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Yea you mean updating it and sending it to the Heli right?

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01-23-2015 07:03 PM  3 years agoPost 13
pctomlin

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Texas

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Sounds like you are in Set RPM governor mode. Normal mode uses an ESC setting of 30% across the throttle curve, head speed is set by the top window at the lower right of the Castle Link software. The middle window sets IU1, throttle curve set to 70% across the points, IU2 is 100% throttle curve across the points, RPM set in the window. When you click on the info button it shows you the actual ESC output to the motor, you don't want to be below 75% on ESC output and 95% for IU2 for governor head room.
Once you have parameters set you must update the ESC to save them in the controller.

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01-23-2015 07:10 PM  3 years agoPost 14
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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The setup you have, figuring perhaps 90% conversion efficiency, would only turn about 2360 RPM, wide open throttle, at nominal 3.7 volts/cell LiPo voltage.

That, coupled with a motor whose Kv might be on the low side of the bell distribution curve for manufacturing tolerances may be your problem.

Assume, for a second that the motor's Kv is 5% low from the target 510 number.

Running the numbers, using that 90% efficiency factor, max RPM would be only 2247 RPM at WOT.

Are the LiPos new, used, tired? Decent sized wires, connector contacts at the ESC (both input and output wires). Does the drive train turn freely with the motor/pinion backed away from the main drive gear? Do you have good, solid, solder joints everywhere?

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-23-2015 07:23 PM  3 years agoPost 15
don s

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Chesapeake, VA

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Yea you mean updating it and sending it to the Heli right?
Yes, since you said you originally set 2150 and got 2150.

E820, Raptor G4N, X50F/E, E620, Forza 450, and some planks.

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01-23-2015 07:42 PM  3 years agoPost 16
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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Thanks Dave, yes my cousin is the perfectionist. He makes everything perfect. All is smooth and soldered very thorough. If it were me on the other hand...... Lol. Does the 90 efficiency mean 90% throttle? We are only able to achieve 2150 rpm t 100% throttle.

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01-23-2015 07:50 PM  3 years agoPost 17
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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Okay pctomlin I will look into that, I will be away from the Heli for a while but I will hopefully keep you guys updated. THANKS FOR THE HELP EVERYONE!

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01-23-2015 08:07 PM  3 years agoPost 18
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Does the 90 efficiency mean 90% throttle?
No, 90% efficiency refers to how efficiently the overall power conversion/drive train operates.

For instance, your car does not convert 100% of every gallon of fuel it burns into power to get you down the road. There are friction losses in the motor, drive train, rolling friction losses in the tires/road surface, and not 100% of the fuel delivered to each cylinder just before the spark happens,gets fully burned, nor does the burning of the fuel in the cylinder transfer 100% of its power to drive the piston back down.

Or, you have a 1000 mah LiPo battery, and you use 800 mah worth of juice out of it. When you charge it, your battery charger will try to replace that 800 mah worth of energy to charge the battery back up to full, but it may have to pump in 900 mah worth of energy to do so. This is because not all of the current going back into the battery is going into charging. The fact that the cell heats up a small amount during charging tells you that some of the juice you're putting back in is going up in heat, not into reversing the chemical reaction that charges the cell.

-----

Your ESC transforms the raw battery DC input voltage into a sequentially chopped (or commutated) voltage drive that runs the three wires of the motor. The process to convert the raw DC voltage into what is needed to commutate the three motor phases is not 100% efficient. Further, you're creating a "rotating" magnetic field inside the motor that essentially drags or pushes the motor magnet poles from their current position to their next position as the motor turns. This is not a 100% efficent power conversion. There are wire losses due to wire resistance. Then there are friction losses in the motor bearings, the pinion gear to main gear interface, the helicopter chassis bearings, swashplate bearing, loading on the blades...all of these small losses add up. That "90%" efficiency value is there to account for many of the losses along the way, to yield more "real world" results.

One other thought comes to mind, as well. The pulse-width modulation setting may increase or decrease efficiency, and if there was a parameter to adjust phase "timing", that could come into play, as well.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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01-24-2015 12:58 AM  3 years agoPost 19
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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The pulse-width modulation setting may increase or decrease efficiency, and if there was a parameter to adjust phase "timing", that could come into play, as well.
With active freewheeling, Kontronik ESC's can determine the proper motor timing automatically to avoid the inefficiencies of improper motor timing.

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01-24-2015 04:30 AM  3 years agoPost 20
tyfast27

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Dubois, Wyoming

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Pctomlin you nailed it man! Ha! Thank you sir!!! So with changing the cc from set rpm to high gov we need a flat throttle curve of 68% to achieve a head speed of 2150 rpm. Thanks guys

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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › 600DFC Will not acquire more than 2150 headspeed
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