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Logo 690 › So my 690sx is here...
10-27-2014 02:33 AM  4 years agoPost 1
carzan

rrVeteran

Lone Star State

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As I stated in another thread I ordered a 690sx. Well the post office really came through and it showed up at my home this weekend. Now I have to consider the components which will power and fly this bird. The kit I got is the combo kit with the motor only. I know I want to try V-Bar silverline for my FBL unit. What I have no knowledge of at all is ESC units and BEC's. So I have some questions for all of you electric gurus.

I expect this has probably been beat to death in the past so some smart guy will probably chime in with a tutorial on how to use the search button. So to that guy I apologize in advance, I would like some fresh conversation about this. You can move on to another thread now.

Keeping in mind I would like the ability to run 1500 or so head speed and with the flip of a switch also run 2000 head speed. So here are a some of the questions I have.

Is it safe to run a BEC or should I be looking to just run a receiver pack?

If yes, a totally separate piece of electronics as in an external BEC or is there an ESC with a BEC built into it that is reliable?

I think the ESC's I would consider that I am aware of are Castle Creations edge 120 and Kontronik Jive Pro 120HV. Heck maybe even a Kosmic 160 if I can be sold on the value. Why are Kontroniks so much more $ and are they worth it?

I think that should spark some lively conversation.

Thanks for any input in advance.

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10-27-2014 02:43 AM  4 years agoPost 2
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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I use a WR BEC for mine. I usually go the 2s route for anything bigger than a 600 but the 690 is so light, I wanted to keep to that way. It works flawlessly

If you want to run that wide range of HS, then DEFINITELY go Pro with the VBAR and use the VBAR GOV. It will allow you to simply set your top head speed in the program and then use flat throttle curves to get the desired HS for 1500. If you are using VBAr Control , then you can just plug in all HS you want to run

As for an ESC. The only Kontronik ESC that will work with the VBAR Gov is the HeliJive….and they quit making that one. SO you have to go with YGE, Castle, or a myriad of other ESCs that will allow external governor support. A YGE120HV will be perfect

Kontronik is a great ESC as well and has a bulletproof BEC built in. You will have to work a little more to get the HS you want (fly and tach each setting to get the HS you desire) but they will work the treat as well. Good luck!!!……Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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10-27-2014 02:57 AM  4 years agoPost 3
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

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I am running straight 2s RX packs for mine. Also, in anticipation for running a stronger motor than came with the kit, I elected to run with a CC ICE 160HV, controlled through the Vbar governor. It was really easy to setup, and I can see my headspeeds right on the TX display through the telemetry.

Since I don't do a lot of hard 3D, I am not as concerned about the weight as is someone who does hard smack. I currently am running 6s 5000s, but may try 3700s when I get a chance. So far, except for the OWB failing, it's been a trouble free heli.

Good luck in your build and flying.

Logo 700, Specter 700, Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
Amain Team Rep

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10-27-2014 10:30 PM  4 years agoPost 4
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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Kontronik recommendation here. The 120 should work fine.

Why Kontronik? Because they just work. IMO peace of mind is worth the additional price. People spending $100 less on their ESC but having to replace airframe/batteries after an ESC meltdown is a false economy to me.

I'm using the Jive 80's internal BEC. Over 412 trouble free flights that way. Way I see it, a RX battery has to be charged, and can fail just like a BEC can fail. Or I can fail to charge it. Which is two things that can go wrong.

BEC's work OK. Just make sure they have the capacity to run all your onboard stuff. I figure the Jive 80 came with a great internal BEC so why pay extra?

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10-28-2014 12:02 AM  4 years agoPost 5
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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I run Jive 80HVs on my 600SXs...and Kos 200HVs on my 700/800XX.

The internal SBECs on these ESCs are the best in the business, so using these ESCs will eliminate the need for an external SBEC.

They also have dual SBEC output ports.

In addition, you can hook up a variety of "buffer" packs with the SBEC "Slave" output port using a Y cable and plug the single end into your RXC port of your VBar silverline.

But, do you use the Kontronik toroid cables with your Kon ESC's SBEC.

The VBar silverline is another good choice for your FBL controller.

The Kontronik is an "active freewheeling" ESC...whereas the CCs are "passive freewheeling"....I have a post somewhere here recently that explains the difference.

With the AFW ESC, you don't need to program the motor timing as it can be done automatically by the ESC.

The programming and extra circuitry for an AFW ESC is what drives the price up primarily.

You won't go wrong with the VBar and a Kos 160HV.

Now you just have to choose some kick-ass servos.

Check out MKS USA...in Houston, Tx....

FWIW

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10-28-2014 12:08 AM  4 years agoPost 6
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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Here's some info, carzan...

The term "freewheeling" (FW) is a term used to describe the use of a diode to snub the back EMF voltage spike that occurs when an energized coil has its voltage/current source turned off by the device driving the motor coil(the FETs).

Without the diode, the voltage spike is severe enough to damage or destroy the FETs in the ESC that drive the brushless motor coils.

This technique has been used for ages in many applications other than ESCs.

Nowadays, with regards to ESCs, FW can be divided into two categories...."passive" FW as described above....and "active" FW.

"Active" FW describes the use of another FET to act as diode, instead of using a diode....which has advantages over "passive" FW.

A FET can be turned on/off under the control of the ESCs microcontroller....and its "on" resistance is in units of milliohms.

This minimal "on" resistance means that less power is dissipated during the time it's turned "on" to snub the back EMF voltage spike as compared to the power dissipated by a diode using "passive" FW.

One of the results is that the ESC runs cooler as a whole.

Active FW is usually only found in higher end ESCs like Kontronik's, while CC uses passive FW.

A matter of cost...due to the additional circuitry and ESC control programming.

And most quality ESCs(not Eflite), whether using "passive" or "active" FW, use "banks" of lower current but very high voltage FETs to distribute the current to each of the motor coils.

One can get either high-current/low voltage FETs or lower-current/high voltage FETs...but not both high-enough-current/high-enough-voltage FETs...to do the job properly....and come in a device package size that is compact.

Another advantage of active FW over passive FW is that the ESC has the ability of determining the motor timing automatically, so that one doesn't have to program the ESC for that situation.

FWIW

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10-28-2014 12:40 AM  4 years agoPost 7
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

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Great description. Thanks.

Logo 700, Specter 700, Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
Amain Team Rep

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10-28-2014 12:57 AM  4 years agoPost 8
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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Anytime, rc

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10-28-2014 01:44 AM  4 years agoPost 9
carzan

rrVeteran

Lone Star State

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Ok, This thread has quickly escalated waaaaay over my head! Don't y'all know I run a car dealership, not an engineering firm!

Seriously, Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my questions! The subject of Active free wheeling seems to have found its way to me several times lately. And basically from what I can decipher, Its a good thing. Especially for running the wide range of head speeds like I want to run.

However, I can also say that Ronald Thomas is not the only person who said basically the exact same thing about how to achieve the spread of head speed I am looking for.

Unfortunately this is an area of the hobby I have very little experience with and am very very uncomfortable with. I need to continue to do research and read more I guess.

EEngineer, I have just about decided to go with MKS servos. It's my understanding they are very efficient and NOT power-hungry. Can you verify this?

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10-28-2014 02:12 AM  4 years agoPost 10
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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I run MKS X8s on both my Logo 700 and 800XX with no problems using the Kosmik 200HV SBEC.

I run MKS BLS970s for cyclic and a BLS990 for rudder on my 600SXs with
no problems using the Jive80HV's SBEC.

With the X8s, you will have to get X8 servo arms from MKS, as the X8 output shaft is wider than Futaba/JR/anybody elses servos.

Either of the above servos are lightning fast...and have loads of torque..

The MKS USA store is in Houston, is that matters to you.
Talk to Thomas, he's a good guy.

You'll learn....just have to learn things in small stages....

I started building Logos with the Logo 600SX and had many questions, too.

Got the 600SX Mikado "bundle" combo...so that I only had to worry about which servos to get.

When RH was alive, THOR main batts were in vogue....now I'm using PULSE batts.

Have you built a Logo of this type before? Have lots of suggestions to save you time and effort.

Such as, it's easier to mount the elev. and rudder servo to the frame before joing the frame halves.

Before I forget, did you order an extra set of main shaft shims(both .5mm and .2 or.3mm)? Mikado USA will have them. These helped me align the gears on the main shaft precisely.

Also, I believe the 690 has a tail belt drive....so there should be an "anti-static" kit included. You will need to drill and tap a 2mm thread in the aluminum motor mount before assembling the frame if you want to connect the anti-static wire to it. Stuff like that.

And, get some extra "edge-guard" that's used on the canopy and on the 700/800XX frames. I highly recommend that you line the main shaft "cut-out" on your canopy using CA from the inside...If you don't, you might get chips in the paint or even cracks in the canopy....from taking it on/off when changing batteries....

FWIW

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10-28-2014 02:50 AM  4 years agoPost 11
carzan

rrVeteran

Lone Star State

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eengineer

Thanks for those tips. I did not know any of them! I won't actually start building this hell for a little bit but when I do can I pm you for any other great tips?

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10-28-2014 04:47 AM  4 years agoPost 12
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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Anytime, carzan....would be glad to help.

Is the 690 instruction manual available anywhere online?

If so, I can check it out to see how similar it is to the
2 different types of 600SX manuals I have from the kits.

Fortunately, I was anal enough to document the 600SX/700XX/800XX
manuals for things like how many main shaft shims/location, etc.

With regards to the 600/600SX plastic frames(I should say composite, but plastic is easier)........the 600SX has 2 "idler" pulleys at the rear of the frame that "guide" the belt to the tail rotor with the 1/4 turn "twist".

Don't remember where, but I saw a pic of a guy whose idler pulley bearing siezed(for whatever reason, probably a used Logo)...the end result is that
the idler pulley shaft(which is finger-pressed into each of the frame halves) spun in the shaft molded receptacle in the plastic frame....

And the heat generated melted the frame shaft receptacle....and the pulley came off and the heli went down.

So, I used a touch of JB Quik to prevent that from occuring....as a bearing will "squeal" before seizing...in most cases..

Preventive maintainance while in the build is easier done.

FWIW

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10-28-2014 05:00 AM  4 years agoPost 13
carzan

rrVeteran

Lone Star State

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EEngineer

I agree that some things are better/easier if done in the beginning rather than in the repair!

Yes the manual is available online. Here is a link to All mikado manuals

http://shop.mikadousa.com/Helicopter-Manuals_c_534.html

Thanks for your willingness to offer the advice and help that comes with personal experience. i will shoot you a PM when I am ready to begin the Build. I figured I would wait to start Until I at least had the servos.

Thanks again!

Jay

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10-28-2014 05:25 AM  4 years agoPost 14
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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Cool...

In the mean time, I will check out the 690 manual to see the similarities and differences to the 600SX manual.

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10-28-2014 04:16 PM  4 years agoPost 15
Rodney Kirstine

rrApprentice

Caldwell, ID - USA

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There goes Gene getting all enginerdy about ESCs again, LOL.

Rodney
Team Synergy Field Rep, Rail Blades

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10-29-2014 12:25 AM  4 years agoPost 16
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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Hey, Rodney

What's been happening?

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10-29-2014 02:00 AM  4 years agoPost 17
Rodney Kirstine

rrApprentice

Caldwell, ID - USA

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I was checking out what Jay is up to. He just recently got back into helis after a break and I helped, where I could, with his N5C. It's good to see he's got someone who knows his stuff with the electronics chiming in on this build.

I'll add my 2 cents while I'm here, lol. I'm running a Gryphon Quasar BEC on my E7 and it's been solid. I wired it with its own EC3 connector to one of the 6S packs so that it's not having to regulate down from 45V and I can also power my electronics without powering the ESC, which is nice for setup.

Rodney
Team Synergy Field Rep, Rail Blades

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10-29-2014 03:34 AM  4 years agoPost 18
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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Well, good for Jay...most everybody takes a break every now and then...

That's a great way to supply power to your avionics without having to power the ESC...no need to worry about an inadvertent spoolup.

On my Logos, with Kon ESCs, I have buffer packs Y'd with the Kon slave SBEC output and then connected to the VBar RXC port through a switch.

Good to hear from ya.

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10-29-2014 03:38 AM  4 years agoPost 19
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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Rodney, I almost forgot....lol

Am still on the list for the TDR II and the TDS...

There seem to be R&D issues as the last I heard, at 2400 RPMs and 195 mph, there's some vibrational rotor head resonance that appears and the thing "blows up".

But, they'll get right...just don't wanna be a beta buyer on these...

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10-29-2014 03:55 AM  4 years agoPost 20
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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Had to get some plumbing work done...so that bit into the budget...lol

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