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HomeAircraftHelicopterLow Head Speed Helicopters › The main reason YOU like low head speed
10-22-2014 03:02 PM  4 years agoPost 21
BARNSPEED

rrNovice

LEE,MA

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Old school
Why LHS
Nastalga, It brings me back to when I first started flying 3D in the 90's.
No power,no gov.,1750 head speed,30% nitro fuel,mixing, Ray StOnge set up, Bare foot Swifty, Crow Island,Maryland,Delaware. Owe no let me wake up, what the F***. Like I said I'm old school,I was lucky enough to learn from the best, had a great group of guys and gals to travel with. We learned from each other. Inverted autos, tictocs, blade stop autos,and hard 3D,all new. We bought fuel buy the truck load and use to bitch at $12.00 gallon. Many 50 gallon or more summers, yes in just six to seven mounths, 100 gallons? Some guys did. Did I fall asleep again! Wait did I mention part failure and crashes, spectacular ones. Yes, we had what I call continuation in those days, helis didn't just pop and lock you made them do it. "GOD" I have to wake up. This LHS stuf has got me going again. Flying and friends, like they say "Just Do It And Have Fun".

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10-22-2014 07:38 PM  4 years agoPost 22
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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Great post! That was before my time with heli's but sounds like a great time to be involved . Everything was new and the sky was the limit!

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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10-24-2014 05:40 AM  4 years agoPost 23
Sam2b

rrElite Veteran

Tacoma, WA

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I'm liking that ESCs these days have the free-wheel feature so we can run HV and low headspeed, then utilize the governor and throttle curves (or feed forward equivalent) to give us the power on demand while at low headspeed. When not in demand, we're nice and slow with improved flight time.

For example, I'm 8 minutes flight time at 1600RPM, 12s, 450KV motor. Even though my particular ESC doesn't free-wheel, it still handles 30% motor headroom well, and only slightly warm above ambient temperature. I'd say that's a nice compromise, especially since I neeeeed power, baby.

_Sam B_

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10-24-2014 02:25 PM  4 years agoPost 24
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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One day I will have to get a free wheeling escs.
Nice setup Sam

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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10-24-2014 04:18 PM  4 years agoPost 25
BARNSPEED

rrNovice

LEE,MA

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Nice set up. Free wheeling looks like the way to go. Hope to add it soon. Just can't get away from the Talon series simplicity on 6s. I believe it more beneficial on 12s.

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10-26-2014 04:07 PM  4 years agoPost 26
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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On a typical 6S "conversion", yes, freewheeling in the ESC doesn't buy you anything because the ESC runs wide open all the time. So may as well use inexpensive ones like the CC, etc.

Way way back in the Stone Age, I had my Kontronik 120HV on my trex 700 for a while and I do distinctly remember it running cooler than a CC with partial throttle ops. But finding a motor that it worked right with was getting more expensive than simply going back to a CC which will spin pretty much anything you plug into it. So that's what I did, just went back to the CC that's on it now. I actually still have my Kontronik in my junk box....

But if you do LHS by partial throttle, the Kontronik is probably the best option out there...

LS

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10-26-2014 06:30 PM  4 years agoPost 27
Santiago P

rrProfessor

South West, Ohio

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So that's what I did, just went back to the CC that's on it now. I actually still have my Kontronik in my junk box....
I recall offering to buy your Jive120 a year ago, since I knew from your descriptions there was likely nothing wrong with it. Suit yourself if you think is junk.

And by the way, the Jive will still freewheel in slow 1000RPM setup, I can hear it do it coming out of vertical manuevers and quick descents.

S

Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
bavarianDEMON- Team Kontronik - Scorpion Motors-

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10-27-2014 12:23 AM  4 years agoPost 28
Chuck Bole

rrElite Veteran

Tulsa Ok. U.S.A.

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My first time around was with a Jive 80HV doing low head speed. Worked fine, although on my first decent the Jive slowed down to the point it sounded like it had stopped. Figured that was that, but when i applied power to pull out it came right back to the previous head speed. A "free wheeling" esc is great but i don't think absolutely necessary.

I'm fixin' to find out first hand though. I just rebuilt a E7 speed,
but this one has a 4530 500 Scorpion and a Castle 160HV planning on running it on both 12s and 8s for High (2000) and low (1300) head speeds.

chuck

Team Synergy Field Representative / Scorpion / Thunder Power

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10-27-2014 12:30 AM  4 years agoPost 29
Santiago P

rrProfessor

South West, Ohio

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Chuck,

12S???

8S ? ??

Did you go through a near death experience? Last time I looked Idid not think you owned anything below 5000 GigaVolts.
LOL

welcome to the slow head is best ol farts club

Santiago

Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
bavarianDEMON- Team Kontronik - Scorpion Motors-

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10-27-2014 01:07 AM  4 years agoPost 30
Chuck Bole

rrElite Veteran

Tulsa Ok. U.S.A.

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Yep that's not the worst of it yet man.. Got a Nitro too as well.
Working on a Gasser this winter too. You should see the looks i got at the field.

Yep turned 52 this year so i'm an official ol fart. With a little grumpy thrown in for good measure.

chuck

Team Synergy Field Representative / Scorpion / Thunder Power

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10-27-2014 02:22 AM  4 years agoPost 31
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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I recall offering to buy your Jive120 a year ago, since I knew from your descriptions there was likely nothing wrong with it. Suit yourself if you think is junk.
Not at all. I just call it a "junk box"; doesn't mean its contents are junk. I have a fair bit of equipment in it that I'm just not using right now. You're quite right that my 120HV is OK (or was last I fired it up) and I'd still let it go. Make an offer.
Hrm, maybe I'll just say "junque box" from now on.
And by the way, the Jive will still freewheel in slow 1000RPM setup, I can hear it do it coming out of vertical manuevers and quick descents.
And the Kontronik also has the best governor out there, mine held like granite. Now that I'm all 6S LHS, tho, I don't need a really advanced ESC and I just use my regular ol' CC's...

LS

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10-27-2014 03:57 AM  4 years agoPost 32
aramb

rrNovice

Macungie, PA

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So I guess to answer your question, I originally liked it for the flight time,.. now I like it even more for the smooth calming nature of the flights versus the slam-it-around the sky style. It's like a nice classical or jazz piece versus "c"RAP.
Nice analogy, Gary!

Team HeliDirect

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10-30-2014 09:01 PM  4 years agoPost 33
Sam2b

rrElite Veteran

Tacoma, WA

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At my 1600 RPM on 12s (30% motor headroom) I love to through it around and abuse it!!! With the gov it really does well and still 8 minutes average. I love that the power is there when I demand, and I take it easy until then. I wish I experimented like this before. I was inspired by Jan Heinselete's write up on efficiency (last 2 paragraghs) with electric motors turning low RPM. With my already-low KV motor it makes it easy to have a nice compromise: my trusty NEU 1915 1.5Y 450KV, 9.583:1 gear ratio.
now I like it even more for the smooth calming nature of the flights versus the slam-it-around the sky style.
Aw, let your hair down and do a blast-off take off! Yee haw!

_Sam B_

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12-03-2014 09:34 PM  3 years agoPost 34
74ranch

rrNovice

midlothian, va.

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I would like to pose a question for advice on say a future "build' I would like a E5 stretched 600 class, 12s. like to run 626 mains will us CGY750 w/BLS274SV. my flight modes would be N= 1400-1500rpm
I1=1500-1600, I2= 1800-1900. I'm old school sport/scale type flyer so if I have this info how would it effect YOUR decision on ESC & motor choice. I want to have the maximum efficiency between esc and motor (less heat), longer flight times. Would you use a lower Kv motor or do you size it just like any other 600 machine. I'm old school "BE" (before electrics)so this is like going back to school for me.
thanks
T

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12-04-2014 04:05 AM  3 years agoPost 35
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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I would just start reading all the posts on low head speed . I know what you are inquiring about has been posted here somewhere. Although it isn't specific to your setup [12 cells] on a 600 here is something.

https://rc.runryder.com/t778930p1/

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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12-04-2014 04:45 AM  3 years agoPost 36
cmezip

rrNovice

Denver, Co

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Because I want to be cool Like Gary Wright! (No seriously dude, it is totally cool and relaxing watching you fly). Meeting cool people like Chuck helps too. Low head speed is a real topic starter. 10 minute flight times, cool equipment, awesome sound of the blades. I like to hear people behind me taking bets on when I will pile it in too. 9-10 minutes is a good amount of time to be in the air. I have 9x7S packs it's hard to get through them all if I only run the E5 stretched to a 700. I run a 4225 Scorpion 550kv motor in it and it has plenty of punch. I also have a single 10s pack for it I occasionally run for 1850 head speed but it's just not the same.

74ranch - I own 3 E5's
696 mains - 1250/1400 head speed on 7s 1850 on 10s (550KV Scorpion 4225)1250 gives me 12 minutes with 30% left in the pack.
606 mains - 1800/2025 head speed on 7s (890KV Scorpion 4025)
556 mains - 2450 head speed on 7s (1100KV Scorpion 4025)

I rarely fly my 556 and have consider swapping it to 626 bird in the 1600 head speed range. I think the E5 flies well @ 1800 on 606's I have not ran it any lower than 1600 but I could see it doing well for sport flying @ that head speed running 626's. When I built my E5's I pulled my experience flying my E7 @ 1200 head speed and purpose built them to fly in the rangesame listed.
If you notice I run 7s packs, two reasons
1 - Balance, I can keep the pack further in the heli chassis since they weigh a bit more
2 - I can gear down a tooth or two and increase my flight times with efficient gear ratios while keeping my motors in the right RPM range.
Sounds to me like a 4025 890KV motor and 12 tooth pinion would be perfect for 6s for what you want to do. http://heli.dacsa.net/calcv3/Default.aspx

Steve

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12-04-2014 05:02 AM  3 years agoPost 37
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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There ya go ,,thanks for posting cmezip!

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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12-04-2014 12:19 PM  3 years agoPost 38
Retired2011

rrElite Veteran

Lee's Summit, MO

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Just for reference, ranch.

I fly my E5 at 1650 mostly, I drop it to 1550 occasionally, but the lack of collective pop scares me sometimes...I'm still learning.

This is with 550 mains, 12T pinion, tail speed up gears from the stretch kit.
Scorpion 4035-560
10S 4000mah packs

I don't remember what HS I ran when I had it stretched.

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12-04-2014 04:58 PM  3 years agoPost 39
gwright

rrVeteran

Champaign Il

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74Ranch,
I had to find out the E5’s gearing options,.. but once I saw 9.91 as max, and you’re target of 1900 headspeed max, I worked backwards. 1900 rpms, time 9.91 is 18,829 motor rpms. Using 12S, assuming 3.7V per cell (it will be above that with any decent battery) you divide 18.829 by 44.4 (12S times 3.7/cell) and it results in 424 for the motor KV. I know most would say go for something like a 450~470KV motor to have a bit of reserve. I like to go the other way,.. and I know with the motors I like to use, a 400KV is available, so I’d use it. I just raise timing a touch, plus expect the batteries to hold higher than 3.7V/cell. 400KV times 44.4V divided by 9.91 gearing results in a targeted max of 1792. However, you’re going to find that most batteries will actually deliver more than that,.. say 3.8 or higher under normal loads, so the math at 3.8 per cell says 1840. I have no doubt it will turn 1900 or even more at zero pitch. You may find you have a touch of loading down at full pitch at the highest rpm due to the KV being just a tad low. Simply increase timing in the ESC (which sort of artificially raises the KV), and you’ll get rid of that loading. You won’t be overgeared, things will run very cool, and you won’t have excess overhead leading to huge current spikes and heating. I haven’t found a motor yet that really wants 0 timing advance, with most wanting in the 10 to 25 degree range to run their best, so that 400KV motor is really going to be around 425~440 in actual use.
For ESC’s,.. although I haven’t used one yet, I’d go with the talon 120. I’m using edge 120’s and bec-pro’s, but the talon is a better value since the bec is built in. Less expense, less weight, and less wires.

If you wanted to go 6S, then I’d go with the talon 90 and a motor in the range of 850KV. At the reduced voltage you’ll need the higher KV and more current, thus more headroom will be needed, and it will run warmer and less efficiently. Those motors, however, are lower weight, so you get a little bit back from that. My 550 stretched to 600 runs on 6S and a talon 90. It flies half as long as my 700’s and 800’s that are on 12S, and the current spikes are MUCH higher.

Just my opinions,and everyone knows what opinions are like <G>. Read, research, and make your own choices.

Gary Wright

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12-04-2014 07:48 PM  3 years agoPost 40
Retired2011

rrElite Veteran

Lee's Summit, MO

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Gary, if I keep reading and studying your posts, some of this info has to start sinking in...right?

Thanks for your contributions here!

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