RunRyder RC
WATCH
 3 pages [ <<    <     1     ( 2 )     3     NEXT    >> ] 2758 views POST REPLY
HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Preset Your Heli GYRO With A Slight Lean As You Plug In Power
08-18-2014 06:39 PM  4 years agoPost 21
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I only offer the long text to confuse you with fact and science.

The Gyros implement a PID control loop. Proportional, Integral, and Derivative processing.

To save time, I stole the following from the web: - be careful, it contains long text and facts:
A proportional-integral-derivative controller (PID controller) is a control loop feedback mechanism (controller) widely used in industrial control systems. A PID controller calculates an error value as the difference between a measured process variable and a desired setpoint. The controller attempts to minimize the error by adjusting the process through use of a manipulated variable.

The PID controller algorithm involves three separate constant parameters, and is accordingly sometimes called three-term control: the proportional, the integral and derivative values, denoted P, I, and D. Simply put, these values can be interpreted in terms of time: P depends on the present error, I on the accumulation of past errors, and D is a prediction of future errors, based on current rate of change. The weighted sum of these three actions is used to adjust the process via a control element such as the position of a control valve, a damper, or the power supplied to a heating element.
The "error term" is based on a few cycles of past history, not all history, and certainly not all history from the last initialization. By the time you have initialized the gyro, stepped back, and begun to spool up, the algorithm is already working with current data, not something from several minutes earlier. The processors operate at a fairly high frame rate and do not bog themselves down with large amounts of stored data.

-----

What you think you are seeing is there because you want to see it. While you are looking up Dynamic Rollover, take a side trip to the land of Placebo.

-----

That a helicopter with a bent shaft shakes differently in the air than on the ground is fully attributable to the fact that in one case, the skids are fully on the ground and LOT of damping is occurring, and in the other case, that damping is gone. The mechanical system in the air is not modeled in the same manner as it would be sitting on the ground.

-----
I certainly don't need one either.
Maybe open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong and can learn.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 06:46 PM  4 years agoPost 22
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Aw c'mon fellers, yall leave ican alone.....

As for the topic, back in the stone age when I first started with helis, I used to play around with tilting the heli on the pad after I'd first learnt about the translating tendency.

it was all in good fun to see if I could achieve just the right angle with my Shuttle to achieve a zero-stick liftoff. I actually got it pretty close once or twice with a few bits of wood under the left skid...

So maybe repeat maybe if you apply a little right stick, drop the heli on the pad and take off in just the right amount of time you may repeat may not have to do the usual countering of translation tendency on liftoff.

But otherwise, yeah the guys are right. Probably what has actually happened is you've gotten so used to the T. T. that you just naturally compensate for it on takeoff without really realizing it.

I'm almost there with my FPV helis, sometimes I do takeoff not only without a crash but with the appearance of it being perfectly vertical. But in reality I've just gotten use to how a heli takes off....

LS

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 06:53 PM  4 years agoPost 23
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Yeah Dave, quit confusing the issue with facts. ICF don't need no stinking facts.

Delayed Response Operator Not Engaged
AMA SECTION 336 = Good
Drones = EVIL

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 07:51 PM  4 years agoPost 24
Funky Trex

rrElite Veteran

Westerville, OH - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I think those long explanations are needed in threads like this so incorrect information is not spread around. Every few years there are a few new "experts" on these forums giving bad/incorrect information as fact. We are lucky to have members like dkshema and TMoore that have been around for many years and take their time to provide a solid explanation of different heli phenomenon. The longer the better, that is how we truly learn.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 07:54 PM  4 years agoPost 25
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 08:20 PM  4 years agoPost 26
kthane

rrVeteran

Pensacola

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I'm still waiting for muffler bearing grease and break-in sand to come back.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 08:24 PM  4 years agoPost 27
Rockohaulic

rrElite Veteran

Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Back in my nitro days, the muffler bearing grease always silenced those pesky, noisy muffler bearings!

But I'm afraid I don't know what break-in sand is.

Can you enlighten me?

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 08:29 PM  4 years agoPost 28
kthane

rrVeteran

Pensacola

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

It's special sand you put in your engine so it will break in faster. Gets in between ring and liner to cut it in faster.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 09:08 PM  4 years agoPost 29
Rockohaulic

rrElite Veteran

Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

It's special sand you put in your engine so it will break in faster. Gets in between ring and liner to cut it in faster.
Cool sign me up!

Anything like that to inject into Li-Po batteries to break them in faster?

Muahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 09:43 PM  4 years agoPost 30
kthane

rrVeteran

Pensacola

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I usually just bake my lipos in the oven @ 300 for 30 min. to break them in.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-18-2014 11:37 PM  4 years agoPost 31
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

looks like we got us a real tard fest here don't we?

I took my heli out back and with its vibing rotor landed it on soft grass while keeping it level, kept it that way for 20 seconds before lifting off again.

The heli was tipping over to one side in the grass and I had to increasingly correct on the right stick until I ran out of servo actions, the heli would have tipped over on its own then. When I was unable to add corrections and before it did a blade stop in the grass I lifted it up and away. I thought it would rise straight up the way it was resting in the grass while fulling spinning the rotor with zero pitch in st1. NOPE, as it lifted up it took the fully leaned over attitude as if my right stick had added all the ground rested inputs and sent them to the servos in one big lump.

Looks like the pid's have memory. miliseconds worth I gather, just enough to kick a heli over to the side if the gyro has too much gain, or sensitivity.

dskshema, some things are better said in short, the pid quote was warranted thank you.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-19-2014 12:09 AM  4 years agoPost 32
pH7

rrKey Veteran

Sterling Heights, MI - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Lifting off a flybarless heli like we used to do with a flybarred heli is a very bad idea. We used to move the cyclic before lift off just to make sure everything was moving the right direction. If you try this with a flybarless heli, or even just lift off too slowly with no cyclic input, the flybarless unit will try to make a tiny correction and because the skids are still in contact with the ground, the heli won't move the correct direction. Due to the feedback loop not having the desired result the correction will get much greater -- quickly. There was no "memory" involved, just the feedback loop doing its job. Just get it into the air where the heli responds as required and there is no problem.

Phil Heavin

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-19-2014 12:15 AM  4 years agoPost 33
jason46

rrVeteran

MI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

To maintain a stationary heli the main rotor must apply some "angle"(aileron, 2degrees somebody said?) to counter the thrust from the tail rotor that pushes the heli sideways while holding the tail straight.

Can anybody make it more simple than that?

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-19-2014 12:49 AM  4 years agoPost 34
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I had to increasingly correct on the right stick until I ran out of servo actions, the heli would have tipped over on its own then. When I was unable to add corrections and before it did a blade stop in the grass I lifted it up and away. I thought it would rise straight up the way it was resting in the grass while fulling spinning the rotor with zero pitch in st1. NOPE, as it lifted up it took the fully leaned over attitude as if my right stick had added all the ground rested inputs
Let's see. You apply full right cyclic on the ground, then apply collective, expecting the helicopter to lift straight up. Instead, it went in a direction as if you had applied full right cyclic.

Don't be scared, the text is now BLUE and RED.

According to your own statement, you applied full right cyclic pitch (the first BLUE phrase.

You then applied collective pitch to lift off. The RED phrase.

The heli doesn't lift straight up, but instead, lifts off as if you had full right cyclic applied. Third, BLUE phrase.

What part of applying full right cyclic at liftoff would cause the heli to lift straight up vertically?

Note that as the heli is sitting on the ground with you applying full right cyclic control, the gyro is watching you apply right cyclic, and is not seeing a corresponding roll motion. It has NO roll motion to react to. You're commanding a right roll, full speed at the maximum rate the gyro has been set to allow. You apply lift. There should be no surprise that the heli goes exactly where you told it to with full right cyclic.

If you truly are in full command of your faculties -- brain functioning, eyeballs receiving visual stimulus, and thumbs doing what your brain tells them to do...when you applied full right cyclic before liftoff, you would have seen the swashplate tilted about as far right as possible.

No sane person would simply romp on collective at this point without fully expecting a serious disaster.

You seem to have seen the exact behavior you commanded. Full right cyclic at takeoff.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-19-2014 01:58 AM  4 years agoPost 35
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I have a poster at work pasted to a concrete wall. It has a black dot on it with an underlying command saying, "bang head here". I'll mail you a copy if you need it Dave.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-19-2014 02:06 AM  4 years agoPost 36
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

the heli is not rolling on its roll cog but is lifting upward on one skid as it rises from the ground, I think the gyro takes this as an opposite roll signal and exaggerates it, that's what I'm saying.

I tested whether I changed the helis take off position from that of where it was plugged in, no real difference. Ground resonance probably has something to do with how the gyro responds with its corrections too.

It would probably be a best case scenario to actually maintain the leaning attitude of the heli with that angle established on the skids, then it would rise STRAIGHT UP vertical every time.

CAPICHE?

maybe that "ignore" button might be helpful in the future.

I'm going to ignore the f-tard replies and let everyone know what kooks some people are here, but I'll have to take the bad with the good sometimes, might learn just that one item that could change things. HAD YOUR FUN YET? don't answer unless you have something wise to contribute.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-19-2014 02:22 AM  4 years agoPost 37
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

STRAIGHT UP vertical every time.
if rigged correctly then to steady hover without cyclic stick input [no wind & hands off]

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-19-2014 02:42 AM  4 years agoPost 38
Rodney Kirstine

rrApprentice

Caldwell, ID - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I'm going to ignore the f-tard replies and let everyone know what kooks some people are here, but I'll have to take the bad with the good sometimes, might learn just that one item that could change things. HAD YOUR FUN YET? don't answer unless you have something wise to contribute.
You already shown that you don't believe that anyone else knows what they're talking about so how are you going to judge if someone has something wise to say?

Rodney
Team Synergy Field Rep, Rail Blades

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
08-19-2014 03:41 AM  4 years agoPost 39
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

uneven skids
Ah, I knew rev would come to the rescue - I was trying to think of a heli with a tilted mast specifically to deal with T.T....

LS

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
08-19-2014 03:50 AM  4 years agoPost 40
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

hey, a picture is worth a 1000 words

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 3 pages [ <<    <     1     ( 2 )     3     NEXT    >> ] 2758 views POST REPLY
HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Preset Your Heli GYRO With A Slight Lean As You Plug In Power
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 9  Topic Subscribe

Saturday, August 18 - 1:19 pm - Copyright © 2000-2018 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online