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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Please go comment on FAA's Special Rule's
07-02-2014 08:51 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

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USA

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Hasn't ANYONE taken the time to call the AMA and clarify this "issue"?
I did. I contacted them yesterday and received a response today. I could not comment until I received their response.

Here is the response I received:

-------------------------------
"Applies to accidents arising from the modeling activities of model aircraft, rockets, cars and boats, in
accordance with the AMA NATIONAL Safety Code(s)."

This does not necessarily mean your AMA coverage is Null & Void if the claim involves a modeling activity that was not in compliance with the Safety Code. It does mean, however, that AMA members are expected to abide by the Safety Code as a condition of membership."
-------------------------------

This makes complete sense as the AMA is not self-insured and does not approve/deny claims them self, the underwriter does based on the terms and conditions of the insurance policy.

I find the last sentence most meaningful and it was exactly what I was looking to confirm.

"AMA members are expected to abide by the Safety Code as a condition of membership."
  
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07-02-2014 08:54 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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"AMA members are expected to abide by the Safety Code as a condition of membership."
But note, again, that that is not a legal compulsion to obey the Safety Code when not at an AMA field, event, etc. The penalty is only the loss or threat of loss of AMA membership, an entirely different thing.

There is no law that compels you in that case with legal consequences. It just does not exist.

LS
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07-02-2014 09:26 PM  6 years ago
xcellgasman101

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By saying the things you say on here, It leads others to follow suit, by NOT FOLLOWING the Rules, You have stated it many time on this and other threads, That it not a Law, therefore I don't have to follow it, that's what you are saying, I don't care if it's a LAW or not, If its safer to use a spotter, then USE ONE AT ALL TIMES when doing FPV, PERIOD!!! You just conformed again,, you don't use one if one is not around, to help you out, Sometimes you do sometimes you don't, That's not the SAFE way to do thing, One day it will bite you in the a$$ and hopefully when it does happen, You don't hurt anyone,, If you know the safe way to do thing, then do it, It's not asking to much, My dad always told me, (rest his soul), If something is worth doing, DO IT RIGHT!!!! I'm done here as this is going no where with you, Go ahead and defend your position all you want, that doesn't make it right, or safe, Good luck to you in the future,, XGM/VGMJohn Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
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07-02-2014 10:05 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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By saying the things you say on here, It leads others to follow suit, by NOT FOLLOWING the Rules, You have stated it many time on this and other threads, That it not a Law, therefore I don't have to follow it, that's what you are saying,
What I'm doing is telling the truth about FPV - what I've learned about it by practicing it and what the FPV community has learned. Also, about the rules and laws, as appropriate, that apply to us or not. However, what others do with that truth or not is their responsibility, not mine.

I don't endlessly finger-wag to others about rules the way you do, however. I just don't roll that way. Instead, I make the more respectable assumption that modelers are responsible adults who make their own decisions about what they choose to do (and transmit that sense of reponsibility to their kids in the hobby also). The more information they have, though, the better. What they do with it is their business and not mine. It's not up to me to turn you into a responsible modeler.

I also know the difference between a "club rule" or "safety code" and a law, which many of you apparently do not. So explaining that has been my goal in this thread - like I said, information is power and informed decisions are usually much better than uninformed ones. And again, it's not on me to make you decide to do what I think is right. It's on you to decide what you think is the right thing to do, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks. Knowing if something is a law vs just a rule or code is a critical part of that.

Finally, I have personal experience with both FPV and LOS flying skill sets that some of you do not, so I know that what some of you are spreading about FPV is misinformation. That's been my other goal - countering the BS you guys have been spreading about this important and enjoyable part of our hobby.

You don't have to like any of this and I sympathize with you. But that's too bad...

LS
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07-02-2014 10:43 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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information is power
Information is not power. Knowledge is power.
informed decisions are usually much better than uninformed ones.
Informed decisions are always better than uninformed decisions.

Your decision and actions that you are exempt from following the AMA Safety Code is not only uninformed, but also demonstrates illogical reasoning.

I've already provided references to AMA documentation and have contacted the AMA directly.

The AMA has stated:

"AMA members are expected to abide by the Safety Code as a condition of membership."

So unless you're willing to relinquish your AMA membership you are obligated to follow the safety code.
  
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07-02-2014 10:55 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Information is not power. Knowledge is power.
And good information is how you gain that knowledge.
Informed decisions are always better than uninformed decisions.
Your decision and actions that you are exempt from following the AMA Safety Code is not only uninformed, but also demonstrates illogical reasoning.
Wrong. My choices are based in American law and where/when it applies or not and when/where the AMA safety code applies or not.
Your quite bizarre idea that you're compelled to comply with the AMA SC at all times everywhere as if it were US law is the one that's based on faulty reasoning. I've already pointed this out to you.
I've already provided references to AMA documentation and have contacted the AMA directly.
The AMA has stated:
"AMA members are expected to abide by the Safety Code as a condition of membership."
So unless you're willing to relinquish your AMA membership you are obligated to follow the safety code.
Irrelevant, as I've stated throughout. The issue is when/where you are compelled by law to comply with the code or not. That is the information that's vital to making informed decisions about what you choose to do.

LS
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07-02-2014 11:11 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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idea that you're compelled to comply with the AMA SC at all times everywhere
Do you have anything in writing from the AMA stating your exemption and how that exemption is non-binding on your AMA membership?

If not, will you be contacting the AMA for written clarification and will you be sharing the AMA's response with the rest of us?
  
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07-02-2014 11:16 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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Do you have anything in writing from the AMA stating your exemption and how that exemption is non-binding on your AMA membership?
I don't need anything in writing from the AMA - I don't need their permission to fly FPV or anything else when flying elsewhere than at an AMA field, event etc (and neither do you or anyone else, member or not).
If not, will you be contacting the AMA for written clarification and will you be sharing the AMA's response with the rest of us?
I don't see why. See above.

LS
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07-02-2014 11:22 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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I don't need anything in writing from the AMA - I don't need their permission to fly FPV or anything else when flying elsewhere than at an AMA field, event etc (and neither do you or anyone else, member or not).
I rest my case.
  
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07-02-2014 11:24 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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I rest my case.
You have no case and you never did.

Produce the law that requires me or you or anyone to seek permission from the AMA in order to fly anything when not at an AMA field or event, and you will have a case. Until then... sorry.

LS
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07-02-2014 11:45 PM  6 years ago
revmix

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NJ

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Produce the law
after all FAA's effort ain't in vain
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07-02-2014 11:46 PM  6 years ago
Tyler

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Chicagoland area

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That's what galls me the most - the worst fights I have to wage to defend FPV are against misinformation coming from within the hobby. The media and FAA I fully expect to be uninformed about our activities, but it's infinitely frustrating when the ignorance comes directly from inside AND it even fights back against informing itself.
But in the end, if it educates even one it's probably worth it.
Pure rubbish. You won't even answer the simplest question... You have no intent to educate us. If you really were interested in helping, you would answer questions, not avoid direct answers.

When you are flying by yourself without a spotter and your FPV video feed fails, how do you safely land your model?
Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.
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07-02-2014 11:46 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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after all FAA's effort ain't in vain
Oh, now, there will be a law that says we'll need to seek the FAA's permission, you can be sure about that...

LS
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07-02-2014 11:50 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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Pure rubbish. You won't even answer the simplest question... You have no intent to educate us. If you really were interested in helping, you would answer questions, not avoid direct answers.
Wrong. I answered all the questions you've posed in the thread already. You simply didn't read the thread and the answers I gave there. That only means you didn't read the thread, not that I didn't give you any answers.

I won't repeat everything over and over simply for your convenience.
When you are flying by yourself without a spotter and your FPV video feed fails, how do you safely land your model?
I addressed this earlier in the thread at length with TMoore.

LS
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07-03-2014 12:06 AM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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Produce the law that requires me or you or anyone to seek permission from the AMA in order to fly anything when not at an AMA field or event, and you will have a case.
So, based on your statement above, you've stated there is a law that requires you and anyone else to seek permission from the AMA in order to fly anything at an AMA field or event.

Where can I find the legal definition of this law?
  
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07-03-2014 12:13 AM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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You won't even answer the simplest question... You have no intent to educate us. If you really were interested in helping, you would answer questions, not avoid direct answers.
He can't. If he was genuinely interested in helping and educating us he'd be reaching out to the AMA for guidance and clarification regarding his interpretation of his requirements for membership. Instead, he's invested his ego in his position and now it's taking a serious toll on his credibility.
  
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07-03-2014 12:23 AM  6 years ago
Tyler

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Chicagoland area

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unclejane,

The reality is that your ego won't allow you to answer a direct question.

We get that.

This is a pride issue, not an ignorant community issue.

Bottom line is this, you won't answer my question because you know I have you backed into a corner once you provide the only outcome to my proposed situation. You realize how vulnerable you will be if you answer my question so you refuse to.

None of us are falling for the whole, "I won't hold your hand, I can't make you read the post, I said it before and won't say it again".

Yep, what a great educator you are. Pure rubbish.
Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.
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07-03-2014 12:24 AM  6 years ago
xcellgasman101

rrElite Veteran

WOODWARD, OKLA....

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Auntjane is not helping the FPV fliers at all, nor is he defending there cause by NOT following AMA's guide lines at ALL TIMES, You are part of the problem, As stated many times here and other post, You don't care about AMA guide lines other than being at a AMA event, by saying this, You show us all just how much you DON'T CARE about SAFETY, If not, then you would follow the RULES, (GUIDE LINES SET BY AMA), Most if not all the problems we have today with flying our TOY'S today are from people just like you,, You are going to do it your way no matter what, and you don't care, Well thanks for that, You are a big part of the problem, Not the solution,,, and as far a helping the FPV community, Your not helping a thing except for getting LAWS passed by FAA to stop us all,, Thanks,,, XGM/VGMJohn Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
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07-03-2014 12:31 AM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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Most if not all the problems we have today with flying our TOY'S today are from people just like you,, You are going to do it your way no matter what, and you don't care, Well thanks for that, You are a big part of the problem, Not the solution,,, and as far a helping the FPV community, Your not helping a thing except for getting LAWS passed by FAA to stop us all
I can only imagine what the folks at the FAA are saying to themselves when they're sitting at their desks reading AMA members' blatant disregard for their own policy and procedures which are contingent for membership. The only good news is that since the policy and procedure are contingent for membership the AMA can remove those who choose not to follow them from their membership.
  
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07-03-2014 12:47 AM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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So, based on your statement above, you've stated there is a law that requires you and anyone else to seek permission from the AMA in order to fly anything at an AMA field or event.
Where can I find the legal definition of this law?
No - I've explained this to you over and over again. I'm going to try one more time:

In the United States, if there is no law outlawing some activity, that activity is not illegal. The activity is legal until a law is specifically passed that declares it illegal. That's a slight oversimplification but that's how laws work in America. That's not true in some other countries, but it is in ours.

The AMA Safety Code is not a local, state or federal American law. Therefore, it does not bind you the way a law does. Period. End of story.

Now, there may be (and probably is) a law which states that you must follow the AMA SC at AMA fields, events. etc., which makes the SC kind of like a law under those conditions.

But the SC itself is not a binding local, state or federal law in America. Therefore I am not compelled (by any entity of the state that governs our nation) to follow it when not at an AMA field, event, etc. Neither are you or anyone else.

The issue one final time: there is no law that requires me, you or anyone to obtain permission from the AMA to fly anything someplace other than an AMA field, event. etc.

This has nothing to do with whether the SC is a good idea (I agree that it is) or whether that puts you under threat of loss of membership or any of these other things. Those are irrelevancies.

The issue is what the law is where you fly whatever it is you're flying. That is the arbiter of whether you're compelled to comply with something or not.

That's the last time I'm going over this. If you can't get it after this, I'm not explaining it to you again. You're on your own.

LS
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