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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Please go comment on FAA's Special Rule's
07-01-2014 09:39 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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It's a matter of law, not evidence.
If it's a matter of law, then it's documented. Surely we do not have undocumented laws in this country. How can people follow the law is if it's not documented? Show me the law.

Are you saying your interpretation are facts based on opinion?
  
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07-01-2014 09:43 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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If it's a matter of law, then it's documented. Surely we do not have undocumented laws in this country. How can people follow the law is if it's not documented?
That is exactly right - you finally got it. If it is not a local, state or federal law on the books, it doesn't outlaw anything anywhere in the US. It is legal until a law is passed that says it is not.

This is not an "interpretation", this is a fact. This is how law works in the US.

LS
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07-01-2014 10:02 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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That is exactly right - you finally got it. If it is not a local, state or federal law on the books, it doesn't outlaw anything anywhere in the US.
This is not an "interpretation", this is a fact. This is how law works in the US.
This isn't about laws whatsoever so I'm not sure why you keep going there. My position throughout this entire thread has been that AMA members are not exempt from following the AMA Safety Code/AMA document #550 based on where they fly in the USA.

Time and time again you've failed to provided any supporting evidence showing where/when AMA members can operate their aircraft and are exempt from following the AMA Safety Code/AMA document #550.
  
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07-01-2014 10:18 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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This isn't about laws whatsoever so I'm not sure why you keep going there. My position throughout this entire thread has been that AMA members are not exempt from following the AMA Safety Code/AMA document #550 based on where they fly in the USA.
Time and time again you've failed to provided any supporting evidence showing where/when AMA members can operate their aircraft and are exempt from following the AMA Safety Code/AMA document #550.
You're wrong and I've already gone over with you how and why you're wrong at sufficient length. So I simply refer you to previous posts at this point. You're on your own with it now.

LS
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07-01-2014 10:30 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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You're ducking the question as I suspected you would. Again - would you accept it if I said "LOS is a crutch" to you after the crash if I put you in my plank? Would you accept that as a proper line of reasoning for your crash?
Answer the question.
Speaking of ducking the question, look in the mirror. You're the original question avoider but to answer your question; No I won't because I can fly a FS aircraft. I fly a friends quite a bit with him in the left seat.

The problem with you throughout this entire thread is the fact, (which you've admitted)is that you are "horrible" at LOS flying. LOS flying is what modeling is all about. FPV contrary to the AMA guidelines is dangerous. When flying models, relying on FPV is tenuous at best, IMHO.
Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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07-01-2014 10:36 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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... to answer your question; No I won't because I can fly a FS aircraft. I fly a friends quite a bit with him in the left seat.
Then you understand why I don't accept your "FPV is a crutch" response then, don't you? Of course you do.
The problem with you throughout this entire thread is the fact, (which you've admitted)is that you are "horrible" at LOS flying.
Irrelevant as I've told you many times. Lots of LOS pilots are horrible at LOS flying; that has nothing to do with FPV.
LOS flying is what modeling is all about.
Wrong. The sizeable FPV community within modeling demonstrates that you are wrong.
FPV contrary to the AMA guidelines is dangerous.
Prove it.
When flying models, relying on FPV is tenuous at best, IMHO.
A "Humble Opinion" won't cut it. Prove your assertions here.

LS
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07-01-2014 11:22 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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You're wrong and I've already gone over with you how and why you're wrong at sufficient length. So I simply refer you to previous posts at this point. You're on your own with it now.
That's your interpretation, based on nothing more than your interpretation. You've had ample opportunity to prove me wrong yet you've failed to produce any supporting evidence.

Facts are not based on opinion.
  
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07-01-2014 11:26 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Then you understand why I don't accept your "FPV is a crutch" response then, don't you? Of course you do.
Methinks you assume too much.
Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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07-01-2014 11:33 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Methinks you assume too much.
K, I'll spell it out for you again, then. "FPV is a crutch" is an inapplicable charge. FPV and LOS are orthogonal skill sets - they are separately learned and maintained. And your competence in one has nothing to do with the other and neither can serve as a "crutch" for the other.

This can be easily demonstrated by pilots competent in one but not the other.

LS
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07-01-2014 11:41 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Keep on dreaming. Modeling is different than FS. If you want to fly FS, fine, you should do that but for the sake of this discussion flying model aircraft is and always will be about LOS.Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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07-01-2014 11:44 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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... but for the sake of this discussion flying model aircraft is and always will be about LOS.
That's wrong and I've already shown you why you're wrong. Like with Ace, however, I can't hold your hand on this anymore and I simply refer you to previous posts in the thread. Your objections have all been countered there and you're on your own now.

LS
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07-02-2014 01:47 AM  6 years ago
Brandon Molina

rrApprentice

Appleton, WI

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Compensation or pay
Hey guys sorry I was late to chime in on this, but the argument about sponsored pilots is really not an issue if you look at 61.113 of the FAR's you can be paid without having a commercial pilots license if it's incidental to you job.. I post an exert below so you can read it but if you go to CFR Title 14 part 61.113 you can read the whole thing

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

Just something else to think about.

You guys enjoy!
Team HeliWholesaler
Wildcat Fuels
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07-02-2014 03:20 AM  6 years ago
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

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test fly related activity
, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if—
(1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational
use;
actually sponsored pilot operates r/c model for hobby/recreation purpose,
recreational use for; the hobby aircraft is strictly flown
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07-02-2014 03:44 AM  6 years ago
Steve Graham

rrApprentice

Denver, CO

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Point of order gentlemen. LOS, FS, and FPV are not as unrelated as it seems a couple have suggested. Risk to the operator may be significantly higher with FS but the principles of aerodynamics, and safe operating practices are universal. Seems to me the fundamental difference is point of view for which all three perspectives have strengths and weaknesses. Understand the risks and work to mitigate them and be happy. Operate without respect for the machine and expose others to your unsafe actions and expect a negative reaction from your fellow citizens.
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07-02-2014 02:39 PM  6 years ago
Tyler

rrElite Veteran

Chicagoland area

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unclejane,

I have followed this thread sporadically because of the length. I have awaited your reasonable and responsible defense, but at this point I don't see it. Actually, I see a lot of diversion from direct questions and other member's reasonable and highly accurate assessments.

Here is something you posted...

"K, I'll spell it out for you again, then. "FPV is a crutch" is an inapplicable charge. FPV and LOS are orthogonal skill sets - they are separately learned and maintained. And your competence in one has nothing to do with the other and neither can serve as a "crutch" for the other.
This can be easily demonstrated by pilots competent in one but not the other."

In the context of what you posted, I call total rubbish.

FPV can be a "crutch", or a perceived easy way out of learning solid LOS flying and still remain in the hobby, although this would be inappropriate.

Any pilot attempting FPV should be an advanced LOS pilot, not the other way around.

There are simply too many instances when LOS recovery is the only safe recourse when FPV video feed systems fail or any part of the model fails.

Most importantly, the examples we portray, the advise we dispense, and the influence we perform affect everyone else in this hobby. The hobby we enjoy and defend.
Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.
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07-02-2014 03:05 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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I have followed this thread sporadically because of the length. I have awaited your reasonable and responsible defense, but at this point I don't see it.
That's not my problem. All of my responses and "defenses" are contained in the thread; it's up to you to read and understand if you choose to. I won't hold your hand on this either; after this response, you're on your own there.
In the context of what you posted, I call total rubbish.
FPV can be a "crutch", or a perceived easy way out of learning solid LOS flying and still remain in the hobby, although this would be inappropriate.
I've already addressed this at length elsewhere in the thread; you give the awful impression of not having read those responses. That's not an excuse for claiming I've not made them. Go read the thread.

Meanwhile, I'll repeat the gist of it here until you actually go read the thread: There is no need to learn LOS first in any sense, before learning FPV. The skill sets are, in practice, orthogonal.

This is easily and trivially demonstrated and proven. Full-scale pilots don't need to learn LOS flying before they learn how to fly FS. Similarly for FPV. The reverse is true as well - FPV skill sets won't help you basically at all when learning LOS.

You're trying to mix circles and squares here to support a totally incorrect contention and they just don't line up. Sorry.
Any pilot attempting FPV should be an advanced LOS pilot, not the other way around.
Wrong. And this can be proven by any full-scale (or "model" FPV) pilot who's never flown a model LOS. I could prove it with my very own equipment right now if I could do so ethically and legally (I wouldn't dare get near any of you guys with a pair of goggles now that your intentions towards FPV are clear, so you have to take my word for it at this time). I can fly far better FPV now than I ever could LOS.

Correspondingly, you can put a pair of goggles on an expert LOS pilot with no FPV experience and witness the spectacular demonstration there. He'll crash just as hard as the one who's never flown anything FPV or LOS.
There are simply too many instances when LOS recovery is the only safe recourse when FPV video feed systems fail or any part of the model fails.
Produce all those instances here. Produce your evidence that our FPV video downlinks have that level of unreliability. In practice, when an airframe fails, it goes into the ground regardless of the method of control. Same with emergency landings when an engine quits; its glided to a landing regardless of control method.
Most importantly, the examples we portray, the advise we dispense, and the influence we perform affect everyone else in this hobby. The hobby we enjoy and defend.
Agree completely. Criticisms of our hobby must be informed. That includes pasteurizing and cleaning up unfounded and ignorant criticisms of FPV like yours, TMoore's and Ace's - you can't just make up a bunch of stuff (as TMoore did) and just attack based on your own fantasies.

That's what the media and FAA are doing and why we're in the spot we're in. It's even more sad when we have to fight ignorance of our own hobby from within the hobby, as I've had to do with FPV. And here I am again battling ignorance again from you.

So I'll tell you what I told TMoore and Ace: You need to go inform yourself about FPV. Then come back and criticize it. Meanwhile, please please stop spreading all this misinformation about FPV. You don't know what you're talking about (yet) - you're not helping the hobby, only hurting it. Please be quiet until you do.

LS
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07-02-2014 04:04 PM  6 years ago
HREFAB

rrApprentice

Long Island NY

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Oh Good Grief, it's "Ford Vs.Chevy" in the R/C world. I stayed out of this hobby for almost 25 years because of idiotic bickering about what's better. I still see it on the flying fields, Plank guys HATE heli's (you can only fly a heli at my local field from 7:30 am to 10 am...works great for us night shift guys). LOS guys HATE FPV (maybe FPV is too much effort to learn?). Multirotor guys are the cause of this FAA intervention (I'm a Multirotor guy so please spare me the grief, you all know it's true, MORONS who fly Multis where they don't belong and bring the spotlight of equally ignorant people upon us).

STOP THE BS and try for once in the history of the Hobby to come together to work towards a SOLUTION rather than your own narrow view of things. Stop parsing words and showing how freaking brilliant you are with your interpretations of law and regulation. The Government doesn't CARE unless you present a unified front.
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07-02-2014 04:08 PM  6 years ago
Tyler

rrElite Veteran

Chicagoland area

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unclejane,

Plop a radio control pilot on the ground, slap on a pair of goggles, begin to fly FPV, then switch off the video transmission.

How will you safely land the model?

Go ahead and answer that question directly, avoiding the scapegoat routine of saying you won't hold my hand.

Man up and provide a simple, direct answer.

How do you safely land an FPV when the video transmission fails?
Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.
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07-02-2014 04:19 PM  6 years ago
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

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VFR, IFR
LOS, FPV
visual, video
eye, instrument
hence the feds ban
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07-02-2014 04:53 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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Plop a radio control pilot on the ground, slap on a pair of goggles, begin to fly FPV, then switch off the video transmission.
How will you safely land the model? Go ahead and answer that question directly, avoiding the scapegoat routine of saying you won't hold my hand.
This was already addressed previously in the thread, which I see you still haven't read - your question is based on several illicit assumptions which I've already talked about.
Man up and provide a simple, direct answer.
How do you safely land an FPV when the video transmission fails?
The hand-holding for you is now done as well. I'm not going to endlessly repeat the same thing over and over for you; you have to do your part. Read the thread like I told you to.

LS
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Please go comment on FAA's Special Rule's
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