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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Please go comment on FAA's Special Rule's
07-01-2014 04:30 PM  6 years ago
whirlyspud

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"So you're in agreement then that there's no place where the AMA specifically states that AMA members are exempt from following the AMA safety code and AMA Document #550 when not flying at what you consider an "AMA field"?

Would it matter if it did? I would bet there are many more new people in to FPV than there are new AMA members. I am an AMA member, and I follow their rules, but I would bet the majority of new FPV fliers could care less about the AMA.

Mike
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07-01-2014 04:55 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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Where is the AMA's "jurisdiction" defined?
Exactly.

LS
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07-01-2014 05:04 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

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Exactly.
So you don't know? If you don't know, then, as an AMA member, how do you know you're exempt from following the AMA Safety Code & AMA Document #550 based on where you fly?
  
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07-01-2014 05:10 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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So you don't know? If you don't know, then, as an AMA member, how do you know you're exempt from following the AMA Safety Code & AMA Document #550 based on where you fly?
Because I know how rules and laws work in the US:

- the AMA rules are not legally binding laws. They're rules for AMA members at AMA fields, events, etc.
- their applicability outside AMA "jurisdiction" is unspecified (that seems to be your assertion? please correct me if I'm wrong).
- Therefore, they are voluntary guidelines elsewhere than at AMA sanctioned fields, events, etc. and that's all they are.

Remember: that's what this whole flap with the FAA interpretation is all about - are there laws explicitly outlawing our activities? If so, they're illegal. If not, they're legal.

LS
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07-01-2014 05:18 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

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They're rules for AMA members at AMA fields, events, etc.
That's simply your interpenetration, not necessarily fact.
  
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07-01-2014 05:22 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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That's simply your interpenetration, not necessarily fact.
Wrong. If it's not a law or rule that explicitly applies to me where I'm flying, I don't have to follow it. That's a fact, not an interpretation.

LS
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07-01-2014 05:41 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

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Wrong. If it's not a law or rule that explicitly applies to me where I'm flying, I don't have to follow it. That's a fact, not an interpretation.
Often times rules and laws are not explicit since the can apply to general circumstances.

The only fact in this case is you have no documentation to support your interpretation.
  
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07-01-2014 05:54 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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Often times rules and laws are not explicit since the can apply to general circumstances.
Produce an example. I know of no case in the US where something can be called "illegal" without a specific law with a specific jurisdiction that explicitly outlaws that something as "illegal".
PS: this is the subject of the Trappy case and, as I mentioned before, the current flap with the FAA.
The only fact in this case is you have no documentation to support your interpretation.
I don't need any documentation and I'm not interpreting anything. The law works the way it works in the US and that's a matter of fact.
Sorry.

LS
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07-01-2014 06:49 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

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Produce an example. I know of no case in the US where something can be called "illegal" without a specific law with a specific jurisdiction that explicitly outlaws that something as "illegal".
PS: this is the subject of the Trappy case and, as I mentioned before, the current flap with the FAA.
Do the public nuisance laws define every possible action that qualifies as a public nuisance? In fact, I recall a news report of drone pilot that crashed his drone in NYC being charged with a public nuisance. The public nuisance law doesn't explicitly state "no drone flying on this street at this time.
I don't need any documentation and I'm not interpreting anything. The law works the way it works in the US and that's a matter of fact.
One cannot understand without interpretation. What you have is interpretation without evidence. I've never seen the zero evidence cases do well in court. Heck, even Judge Judy would have a field day with this one.
  
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07-01-2014 06:53 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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Do the public nuisance laws define every possible action that qualifies as a public nuisance? In fact, I recall a news report of drone pilot that crashed his drone in NYC being charged with a public nuisance. The public nuisance law doesn't explicitly state "no drone flying on this street at this time.
But there are such things as nuisance laws. They are laws. They exist.

There is no such thing as an AMA guidance law. It's not a law. It does not exist. Nor is there anything else that isn't a law and yet still outlaws something somehow in the United States. You just don't get there from here, that's not how it works here.
One cannot understand without interpretation. What you have is interpretation without evidence. I've never seen the zero evidence cases do well in court. Heck, even Judge Judy would have a field day with this one.
See above.

LS
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07-01-2014 07:06 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

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Suppose I put you in my plank and told you to go take a trip around the pattern in it. If you survived and I told you afterwards in the hospital "LOS is a crutch", would you accept that as a proper excuse for the crash?
This is like a prize fight with you doing the "rope a dope". Constantly changing the subject by trying to apply fullscale rules to models isn't working. The fact is that model flying is a LOS hobby. Get with the program and learn to fly LOS reliably, then you can fly FPV all you want.

The AMA has put rules into place so that the Congress and the FAA will recognize that our members are a "governed body" that follow rules and use common sense in the operation of our model aircraft so we won't be subject to the all encompassing oversight of the FAA; so we won't all have to be licensed pilots; so we won't have to have a medical to fly; so we won't have to qualify periodically; so we won't have to follow an increasingly larger litany of rules that will go a long way in changing our industry in a way that is out of our control. The fact is that unless a licensed pilot is a modeler(I have lots of friends that do both quite well) we could possibly be shut out of the process by folks that can't fly models and don't understand what the hobby is all about because AFAIK, there doesn't seem to be any modelers working for the FAA that have our best interest at heart.

The AMA put FPV rules in place because they understand the risks perfectly and by putting those rules into place they have demonstrated to the FAA that they have indeed looked at the issue and there are guidelines in effect that govern the membership with regards to that sort of flight regime and they expect the membership to comply thereby keeping our hard fought victory intact with the Congress of the United States.
Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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07-01-2014 07:11 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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This is like a prize fight with you doing the "rope a dope". Constantly changing the subject by trying to apply fullscale rules to models isn't working.
You're ducking the question as I suspected you would. Again - would you accept it if I said "LOS is a crutch" to you after the crash if I put you in my plank? Would you accept that as a proper line of reasoning for your crash?

Answer the question.
The fact is that model flying is a LOS hobby. Get with the program and learn to fly LOS reliably, then you can fly FPV all you want.
Wrong. And the entire FPV community within modeling demonstrates that you are wrong.

LS
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07-01-2014 07:23 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

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I know of no case in the US where something can be called "illegal" without a specific law with a specific jurisdiction that explicitly outlaws that something as "illegal".
They are laws. They exist.
I know, and I provided the example you asked for. I never said something is illegal without a law as that would be impossible. What I did say was laws can be written in a general sense as my example shows.

I never once stated AMA rules or guidance are laws.

What I've asked for repeatedly is any documentation you have that states you, as a member of the AMA, are exempt from following the AMA Safety Code and AMA Document #550, when you are not flying at what you've defined as an "AMA field". You still have not provided any evidence. I'd be more than happy to review any evidence you have as inquiring minds want to know, but you just haven't provided any and thus the only thing we have to go on is your personal interpenetration.
  
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07-01-2014 07:25 PM  6 years ago
revmix

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interpenetration
AMA's push for idiot/foolproof rules
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07-01-2014 07:46 PM  6 years ago
don s

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"interpenetration" sounds like a sex act.

It's like a F*&^ing clash of the titans in here.
E820, Raptor G4N, X50F/E, E620, Forza 450, and some planks.
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07-01-2014 08:58 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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I know, and I provided the example you asked for. I never said something is illegal without a law as that would be impossible....I never once stated AMA rules or guidance are laws.
Then why are you interrogating me about the AMA code as if it were a law? If you know already that it is not a law, you understand the underlying issue here, right?
What I've asked for repeatedly is any documentation you have that states you, as a member of the AMA, are exempt from following the AMA Safety Code and AMA Document #550, when you are not flying at what you've defined as an "AMA field". You still have not provided any evidence.
It's not a matter of evidence; its a matter of the legal status of the AMA safety code. Again - the AMA safety code is not a law. Therefore it does not act like a law. It does not apply to anyone outside of the AMA's "jurisdiction". There may be a law that says "when at an AMA field you must follow the AMA safety code" that makes it kind of a law at an AMA field or event, but the code itself is not a law.
Therefore, I need not follow it (even if it's a good idea which it is) when not at an AMA field or event, etc.

Simple. I've gone over this with you multiple times now.

LS
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07-01-2014 09:22 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

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Simple. I've gone over this with you multiple times now.
And every single time you've failed to provide any supporting evidence to support your claim(s) beyond your own personal interpretation.

It's my interpretation that AMA members are required to follow the AMA safety code/AMA Document #550 (both of which exist in writing) regardless of where they fly in the USA. If I'm wrong, then I look forward to understanding the terms and conditions under which individuals may be exempt.
  
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07-01-2014 09:24 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

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Again - the AMA safety code is not a law.
I never said they were law. Perhaps you can check with Mr. Sterling regarding law vs. club rules.
  
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07-01-2014 09:26 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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And every single time you've failed to provide any supporting evidence to support your claim(s) beyond your own personal interpretation.
And every single time... I don't need to present any evidence. It's a matter of law, not evidence.
It's my interpretation that AMA members are required to follow the AMA safety code/AMA Document #550 (both of which exist in writing) regardless of where they fly in the USA. If I'm wrong, then I look forward to understanding the terms and conditions under which individuals may be exempt.
I've given you the "terms and conditions" multiple times now that show how and why you are wrong. So one more time:

The AMA safety code is not a law. It is only a rule of operation within AMA's domain and that's all.

Therefore it doesn't carry the force of law anywhere outside of the domain of AMA. Ergo, no one is required to follow it outside that domain.
I never said they were law. Perhaps you can check with Mr. Sterling regarding law vs. club rules.
Then you understand the issue here, right?

LS
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07-01-2014 09:32 PM  6 years ago
revmix

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titans
FAA the boss, AMA just sidekick
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Please go comment on FAA's Special Rule's
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