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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Please go comment on FAA's Special Rule's
06-30-2014 05:24 AM  6 years ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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I am just starting to get into FPV flying, so this issue is of interest to me.
As far as RTH and IOC are concerned, try using that if you have flown behind a 7+ story building or structure or are flying in or under a low structure such as a tunnel, parking garage, etc. Both are useless if RC or FPV link fails in these scenarios and you cannot see the aircraft.
People are flying these things in places they should not be just for the glory of creating a cool video. Unfortunately, thanks to these people, I can see why the FAA wants to regulate these things.
In other hobbies such as guns and go-karts, you don't go into the middle of downtown and start shooting for the hell of it, and you don't race your go-karts down a busy highway. If this is a hobby, we need to fly them where it is safe and appropriate, not just anywhere we want to.
Good points. I would agree with them.
We see this differently, then. Being spatially unaware because you lost orientation while LOS vs being spatially unaware because of a lost video downlink are both being spatially unaware to me. They're both equally dangerous conditions.
Losing the video downlink, however, is a significantly less likely hazard than losing orientation while LOS - the latter has happened to all of us and we know how distressingly common it is.
This doesn't happen to the FPV pilot.
Speak for yourself. I haven't lost orientation more than half a dozen times over more than 40 years of flying RC. I've dumbthumbed plenty of machines but losing orientation mainly occurs when I'm trying some new 3D stunt and I'm pushing my meager skillset. IMHO, if you want to fly FPV you may as well buy a real airplane or helicopter, pay the price to learn to fly it and burn gas. I don't see where FPV pilot can do piro stuff, orientation 3D maneuvers or the like and still know where the model is whilst doing it. Simple aerobatics should be OK in the direction of flight but I can't see anyone really doing any backwards flight either upright or inverted reliably.

If you fly FPV because you don't have LOS skills, then FPV is a crutch. If that is the case plant your posterior in a real airplane or heli and fly that. JMHO.
Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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06-30-2014 05:54 AM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Speak for yourself. I haven't lost orientation more than half a dozen times over more than 40 years of flying RC.
That puts you in a very elite league indeed, then. I'm not doubting what you say, but I also think you're downplaying one of the more regular hazards of LOS flying.

OTOH, I've not lost a video downlink once and, unlike when I flew LOS, I've not become disoriented once while FPV.

Like I said, you seem to be passing judgement on an activity in RC that you yourself are not competent or experienced in. That, IMO, is just as bad as the FAA doing the same thing. That doesn't help the hobby at all.
I've dumbthumbed plenty of machines but losing orientation mainly occurs when I'm trying some new 3D stunt and I'm pushing my meager skillset.
There you go.
IMHO, if you want to fly FPV you may as well buy a real airplane or helicopter, pay the price to learn to fly it and burn gas.
I don't agree. I am a planker in full-scale, but FS is not an option for many modelers for a multitude of reasons. It could be financial or health or disability. FPV brings a full-scale like experience within reach of such pilots at a fraction of the cost and can accomodate health problems/conditions that full-scale does not.
I don't see where FPV pilot can do piro stuff, orientation 3D maneuvers or the like and still know where the model is whilst doing it. Simple aerobatics should be OK in the direction of flight but I can't see anyone really doing any backwards flight either upright or inverted reliably.
Those maneuvers are not required to enjoy modeling or helicopter flying or to become a competent pilot (FPV or LOS).
If you fly FPV because you don't have LOS skills, then FPV is a crutch.
I'd call it the other way around - Real Men fly FPV!
If that is the case plant your posterior in a real airplane or heli and fly that. JMHO.
Like I said, full scale is out of reach for many; FPV is fully worthy substitute for that type of experience and is much more accessible to many modelers.

LS
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06-30-2014 02:48 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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According to the AMA rules:

1. An FPV-equipped model must be flown by two AMA members utilizing
a buddy-box system. The pilot in command must be on the primary
transmitter, maintain visual contact, and be prepared to assume
control in the event of a problem.

2. The operational range of the model is limited to the pilot in command’s
visual line of sight as defined in the Official AMA National Model
Aircraft Safety Code (see Radio Control, item 9).

3. The flight path of model operations shall be limited to the designated
flying site and approved overfly area.

4. The model weight and speed shall be limited to a maximum of 10
pounds and 60 miles per hour."

How many of these rules do you violate every time you fly your T800 on FPV?
Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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06-30-2014 02:51 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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How many of these rules do you violate every time you fly your T800 on FPV?
None.

LS
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06-30-2014 02:58 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

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USA

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4. The model weight and speed shall be limited to a maximum of 10 pounds and 60 miles per hour.
That's incorrect.

The AMA FPV requirements can be found in AMA document #550 here:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/550.pdf
  
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06-30-2014 03:02 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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I should clarify my answer: I no longer fly FPV at my local AMA field so I'm not subject to the AMA rules when I do so.

If I did, I would, of course, follow the rules to the letter, as required, whether I like them or not.

LS
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06-30-2014 03:17 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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BTW, speaking of the AMA rules, I will soften up a bit on them, since really they're not that objectionable:
a) FPV novice pilots undergoing training at low altitude must use a buddy-box system with
an FPV spotter, or must go to a safer altitude if no buddy-box system is used.
b) All FPV flights require an AMA FPV pilot to have an AMA FPV spotter next to him/her
maintaining VLOS with the FPV aircraft throughout its flight.
a) is probably not a bad requirement at all since it defines a rule for training. b) actually suggests that once you're at solo proficiency you don't need the buddy-box tether anymore and the 2nd "crew member" is functioning only as a spotter.

I think that's actually pretty rational, so I'll retract at least part of my original objection.

Now that FAA has redefined FPV ops, tho, this is all moot and basically inapplicable anyway. But if, in an alternate universe, the FAA would adopt this as a regulation, I would probably support it.

LS
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06-30-2014 03:22 PM  6 years ago
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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I should clarify my answer: I no longer fly FPV at my local AMA field so I'm not subject to the AMA rules when I do so.
That right there is the whole problem,, It doesn't matter if you are at a AMA field or not, AMA rules should be followed at ALL times, no matter where you fly, and that's what put us in the place we are now, by people NOT flowing the rules,, Thanks for all your help..... XGM/VGM
John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com
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06-30-2014 04:10 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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The rules I posted were slightly out of date, no biggie, so the overall weight is 15 pounds and 70mph. Fact is even when you fly on private property like John says the AMA rules should still apply because if you do encounter an issue and let's say the model flies off, AMA secondary insurance would most likely come into play. A couple of years ago our club had a severe accident at the field and an electric model center punched a spectator that was on the flight line and opened up his abdomen. It was an expensive accident.

I fly on private property as well(my own) and I will still follow all of the AMA safety guidelines and anyone else who flies with me will be an AMA member.

It's clear to me that if we didn't have a bunch of folks running around flying MR's with cameras trying to scratch out a buck, folks overflying other folks property while they are under the hood and people in general acting like fools overflying sporting events like the dude overflying the Pirates game, the FAA wouldn't care about model flying and we could happily coexist with the National Airspace. Instead the FAA looks at modelers like we're a bunch of Hoodlums
Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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06-30-2014 04:25 PM  6 years ago
revmix

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NJ

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bunch of Hoodlums
“My response to the FAA was to piss off,” he said. The FAA hasn’t followed up. If the agency sends a formal cease-and-desist letter, “I’d probably frame it, hang it up on the wall and keep going about my everyday business,”
“Nobody is asking the FAA how to proceed, so it’s turned into a modern version of the Wild West, where some people think anything is OK.”
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06-30-2014 04:53 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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I should clarify my answer: I no longer fly FPV at my local AMA field so I'm not subject to the AMA rules when I do so.

If I did, I would, of course, follow the rules to the letter, as required, whether I like them or not.
The AMA safety code applies no matter where you fly.
  
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06-30-2014 05:07 PM  6 years ago
whirlyspud

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USA

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"The AMA safety code applies no matter where you fly."

Yes and No. It can if you are a member. Do you think most of the people causing the problems are members?

Mike
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06-30-2014 05:13 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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That right there is the whole problem,, It doesn't matter if you are at a AMA field or not, AMA rules should be followed at ALL times, no matter where you fly, and that's what put us in the place we are now, by people NOT flowing the rules,, Thanks for all your help..... XGM/VGM
Do you follow every rule or law established everywhere? If you live in Texas, do you necessarily follow Oklahoma state law? You do understand that not every law or rule established in one place applies to everyone else everyplace else, don't you?

LS
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06-30-2014 05:14 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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The AMA safety code applies no matter where you fly.
Absolutely not. It applies only at AMA fields and sanctioned events.
Elsewhere, it's a good idea and recommendation, but it is not a rule.

LS
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06-30-2014 05:17 PM  6 years ago
whirlyspud

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USA

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It is not a law. Nobody is required to be a member of AMA to fly a radio controlled model.

Mike
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06-30-2014 05:18 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Fact is even when you fly on private property like John says the AMA rules should still apply
Should apply is the operative word. As I told xcell, however, the AMA rules are not rules everywhere else.
It's clear to me that if we didn't have a bunch of folks running around flying MR's with cameras trying to scratch out a buck, folks overflying other folks property while they are under the hood and people in general acting like fools overflying sporting events like the dude overflying the Pirates game,
And it's clear to me that we have these kinds of mischaracterizations of our hobby going on within the hobby. You need to inform yourself about the FPV community before you start making blanket assertions like these about it.

That gets FAA's attention too - they don't check your facts for you. You are responsible for the accuracy of your accusations, not us. And we pay the price.
LS
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06-30-2014 05:24 PM  6 years ago
whirlyspud

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USA

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They are rules only as far as being a AMA member and trying to be in compliance is involved. Other than that, I agree with UncleJane. I don't like it, but they have no rule of law.

Mike
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06-30-2014 05:29 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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And it's clear to me that we have these kinds of mischaracterizations of our hobby going on within the hobby. You need to inform yourself about the FPV community before you start making blanket assertions like these about it.
That gets FAA's attention too - they don't check your facts for you. You are responsible for the accuracy of your accusations, not us. And we pay the price.
If you can't follow the AMA Safety Code we'll just mark you off the list then. No AMA Insurance for you. Don't even lecture me about this hobby, I was flying RC long before you even had an interest in it. You've only been a member here since 2011 with a very small number of posts (half of which were Off Topic) comparatively speaking and I can guarantee that I've been to many more events than you have so it's very presumptuous to think you have the only opinion on what FPV is and isn't.
Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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06-30-2014 05:36 PM  6 years ago
whirlyspud

rrKey Veteran

USA

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A big part of the problem Terry is that the majority of people buying these things have no idea what the AMA or the Safety code even is. And if they did know, they probably would not care anyway. I have flown RC since the late 70's, and I have always thought that we were on borrowed time. I feel that way even more today. I wonder if they will let us fly control line in the future?

Mike
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06-30-2014 05:43 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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No kidding Mike. At some point the FAA will try to regulate the virtual air space on my frigging Sim.Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Please go comment on FAA's Special Rule's
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