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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › FAA comes down with aggressive position on model aircraft
07-05-2014 05:16 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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And you are the only one sowing misinformation, not me.
What did I say that you are specifically referring to?

If it's the fact that you, as an AMA member, are not exempt from following the AMA Safety Code, then that's fact, not misinformation.

Fact is, you agreed to it when you signed your application to become an AMA member.

Lastly, I contacted the AMA twice for confirmation. They referenced the signature line on the membership application and the wording directly above it which states "I agree to follow the AMA Safety Code."
  
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07-05-2014 05:18 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Wait, wait, wait. Now the full story is coming out:

First, TMoore's problems with FPV and his F550 are my fault...:
You're the poster child for irresponsible use of technology;
Uh oh, then all of a sudden it shifts to being DJI's fault; heck even JCPenny can't seem to escape liability:
Read it again Chris, I said at the "retail" level. I didn't say they couldn't sell them at all but it needs to stay at the Hobby Shop level so that the folks that buy this stuff might have a chance at some education prior to initial use so some of these high altitude tests might not happen at all....Remember when Sears, JC Penny and others used to sell RTF stuff and folks would just come out to the fields and turn on? Now it is even more irresponsible because the stuff almost flies itself.
Oh oh oh, now it's back to being my fault again:
Yeah you are responsible for your own actions UJ, step out from under the hood and learn LOS, heck there may be some young dude out there in NM that would help a fellow like you learn to how to fly his models without the crutch of FPV.
Well the cat's out of the bag... sometimes the problems with our hobby are my fault and sometimes it's DJI's and even JCPenny's fault and then it's back to my fault and then it's DJI's again and then it's my fault and......

I think I'm getting seasick!

This is a whole brand new ethic of personal responsibility that the world has probably never seen before.

Can you clear up the confusion here a little more? still having some trouble seeing the pattern here... Where does your personal responsibility fit into all this again?

LS
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07-05-2014 05:32 PM  6 years ago
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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Well . . . TMore is another one that doesn't believe people should be held responsible for their own actions.

It's someone else's fault . . . the retailer, the manufacturer, the guy next door, etc.
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07-05-2014 05:33 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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The way to clear up all the confusion is for you to go outside, take the goggles off, fire up the heli and do some good old LOS flying.

That's what I'm going to do this afternoon.
Well . . . TMore is another one that doesn't believe people should be held responsible for their own actions.
It's someone else's fault . . . the retailer, the manufacturer, the guy next door, etc.
AirWolfRC, I didn't say that, you did. Do you have a CC Permit? If you do, when you went to get one did you have to go through a training course, pass a test, demonstrate proficiency with your weapon? Here in TN we do. TN just doesn't hand you the permit and let you have a CCD because you tell them you're a good guy and you'll be responsible.

If you hold a turbine waiver as I do, you also had to demonstrate a certain level of proficiency, have a certain number of flight hours with a 60 size model or larger and have a turbine CD as well as another CD sign off for you to get one. I absolutely believe that folks should be responsible for their actions but there also needs to be just a wee bit of education as well and IMHO, the hobby shops and online model shops are the best ways to sell something like a Phantom but that's me.
Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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07-05-2014 05:35 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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@unclejane - The fact of the matter is, the FAA has spoken.

The question is, what are you doing about it?
  
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07-05-2014 05:38 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Well . . . TMore is another one that doesn't believe people should be held responsible for their own actions.
It's someone else's fault . . . the retailer, the manufacturer, the guy next door, etc.
That's really something, isn't it? I'm the one that brought the FAA down onto AMA for some reason that seems to exist only in the mind of TMoore. Well we have an explanation for that idea - it was DJI and his F550!

Apparently the Parrot doesn't have this Ghost In The Machine that DJI is putting in all their products. Telling guys to go fly FPV and bring modeling to an end.

Wow, you, me and Chris, we're old school! Behind the ethical times!

LS
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07-05-2014 05:42 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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@unclejane - The fact of the matter is, the FAA has spoken.
The question is, what are you doing about it?
Well the first order of business is getting my DJI stuff to a therapist right away! I have 5 DJI multis, one of which is one of those evil Phantoms and not a-one of them has told me to go do a high altitude test with my Fatsharks on...

Something's wrong! They need help and I need to fix that pronto!

LS
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07-05-2014 05:52 PM  6 years ago
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Wow, you, me and Chris, we're old school! Behind the ethical times!
The difference between you and Chris is that Chris can fly, I've seen him do it.
Part 107.
The only ZERO flight hour certificate in the world.
It's like getting a driver's license without the driver's test.
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07-05-2014 05:54 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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The difference between you and Chris is that Chris can fly, I've seen him do it.
Your F550 talking to you again? Those evil guys over at DJI are influencing your mind again. Feeling an urge to put on those Fatsharks yet?

LS
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07-05-2014 06:13 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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The way to clear up all the confusion is for you to go outside, take the goggles off, fire up the heli and do some good old LOS flying.
That's what I'm going to do this afternoon.
I'll take the F550 when you get the Parrot - my 2 F550s could use a pal. Is its voice female? Majel Barret maybe?

LS
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07-05-2014 06:40 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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What did I say that you are specifically referring to?
(now that TMoore has entered the realm of the ridiculous, there's nothing left to do but ridicule. )

LS
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07-05-2014 07:09 PM  6 years ago
HREFAB

rrApprentice

Long Island NY

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DJI doesn't have the right to sell at the retail level but should only sell at Hobby Shops????? I am unable to construct a sentence that could adequately respond to that. The word idiot springs to mind, but is far too mild an adjective to give proper weight to the statement.

Mr. Bergen has it 100% correct. The Violators NEED to be held accountable. However, that's not the way it works in the U.S. If suddenly a majority of Turbine owners began flying into buildings, or sports crowds or playgrounds, you'd see a big backlash and calls for regulation or restrictions.

Then again, Turbines are pretty pricey compared to a Phantom. Turbines are more the realm of an experienced or at least dedicated R/C enthusiast. Far less likely to be purchased on a 'whim' or spur of the moment, and additionally, and probably MORE important, require skill and permits (waivers) to operate in the first place.

A 10 year old can operate a Phantom (please spare me the prodigy 5 year old heli pilots). The real problem is the 20, 30, 40 or 50 year old who has the mental capacity of a 5 year old buying a multi and finding ways to use it that re inappropriate.

We may be heading to a place where licensing is required. All in all, probably not a bad thing, but economically it would have a chilling effect on the manufacturers, at least temporarily.

And finally, the argument between LOS and FPV is simply ludicrous. Much akin to someone castigating others for not adhering to control line or FF modeling. There's an ass for every seat. And if you don't start to exhibit some unity, EVERYONE will suffer.
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07-05-2014 07:16 PM  6 years ago
HREFAB

rrApprentice

Long Island NY

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And for some light entertainment I present:

Watch at YouTube

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07-05-2014 07:21 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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And finally, the argument between LOS and FPV is simply ludicrous. Much akin to someone castigating others for not adhering to control line or FF modeling.
Like I said before, TMoore and the others aren't the only ones I've ever encountered within the hobby with an absolutely profound ignorance of FPV. I run into all manner of FPV critics all over the place in r/c who've also never flown FPV or have only donned a pair of goggles once or twice. They're exactly the same - FPV is dangerous, FPV will end the hobby, FPV is a crutch, 'real' modelers only fly LOS, and on and on with the same stream of lies and fantasies.

This is partly why AMA was blindsided by the FAA interpretation letter - the FAA were getting their mis-information not only from the media and other usual outlets, but also from within the hobby itself. Now AMA is looking around doing the "who...whaaa?" probably not realizing the informants were likely AMA members themselves.

Unity on this issue is probably a lot further away than we think it is. Only time will tell, tho, if we can get our story straight before FAA finally acts and there will be nothing we can do about it.

LS
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07-05-2014 07:57 PM  6 years ago
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

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limit the altitude to 400' using on-board altimeter/GPS
actually by AMA no altitude limit outside of airport safety zone,
and by FAA no 400' limit at all within the 5 miles of the airport

AMA; Effective January 1, 2014
(c) Not fly higher than approximately 400 feet above ground level within three (3) miles of an airport without notifying the airport operator.

In 1981 FAA Advisory Circular AC 91-57 advised that model aircraft not exceed altitudes of 400ft. At this time there is no FAA regulation/rule preventing model aircraft from flying above 400’ AGL. For the past 32 years the AMA applied this FAA advisory only within 3 miles of an airport in the AMA National Safety Code. The AMA will continue to use all its resources to prevent the FAA from making 400’ a regulation/rule for all locations of model aircraft flying.

FAA; PUBLIC LAW 112–95—FEB. 14, 2012
(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator
of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport
air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located
at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft
operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of
an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating
procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic
control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the
airport)).
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07-05-2014 08:04 PM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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This is partly why AMA was blindsided by the FAA interpretation letter - the FAA were getting their mis-information not only from the media and other usual outlets, but also from within the hobby itself. Now AMA is looking around doing the "who...whaaa?" probably not realizing the informants were likely AMA members themselves.

Unity on this issue is probably a lot further away than we think it is. Only time will tell, tho, if we can get our story straight before FAA finally acts and there will be nothing we can do about it.
What are you doing to help correct the situation and set the record straight? Have you volunteered to assist the AMA?

Based on the FAA's interpretation this crisis needs action now. Surely you don't believe a few posts from you in an on-line forum are going to change the FAA's mindset.
  
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07-05-2014 09:49 PM  6 years ago
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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Sorry Terri, we'll have to disagree on this one... . Yes cars are registered, drivers are licensed. Good thing to, or we'd have people crashing and killing people, drag racing in the street, speeding through neighborhoods, etc... Oh wait.....

I also own a number of weapons, not all of them registered... Some aren't required to be. I also have a CPL, but it's not required in MI if you open carry. Yes I train with my weapons, but that training should not be REQUIRED for the right to be able to defend yourself.

By your way of thinking, GM/Ford/Chrysler etc bear responsibility for drunk driving, right? Bushmaster is responsible for the little $hit who killed 26 people in Newtown, right? No, absolutely not!

DJI is not responsible in any way for some dip$hit who flies the phantom they purchased on Amazon into a building in NYC. Its up to the individual to get the training, practice, and knowledge needed to do this the right way.

Let's say the FAA finally comes up with regs that "allow" commercial ops with licensing, training requirements, $$$ paid to the local FSDO for "inspection", whatever. Joe idiot goes and buys himself a nice Raptor, puts a camera on it, starts an AP business, with NO CLUE he's supposed to get "permission", and causes an accident. Who's responsible? Thunder Tiger? Suure....
Chris D. Bergen
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07-06-2014 03:00 AM  6 years ago
aceisback

rrApprentice

Terre Haute, IN

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Well . . . TMore is another one that doesn't believe people should be held responsible for their own actions.
Mr. Bergen has it 100% correct. The Violators NEED to be held accountable.
And how is that supposed to happen WITHOUT any type of regulation??? If there are no laws or regs, then nobody can be held accountable. Now laws, no penalties...

All I know is that if I am in a public place with my family and I see some idiot with FPV goggles on, and the quad flies anywhere near me or the kids, I will pick up whatever I can find and throw it at the quad to bring it down. Why??? Because there is no law that says I can't and I know that a responsible pilot would not be flying in that environment anyway so that is how they will be held accountable
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07-06-2014 05:14 AM  6 years ago
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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What are you doing to help correct the situation and set the record straight? Have you volunteered to assist the AMA? Are you forming your own organization to change the FAA's mindset?
Talk is cheap and based on the FAA's interpretation this crisis needs action now. Surely you don't believe a few posts from you in an on-line forum are going to change the FAA's mindset. Are you part of the solution or part of the problem?
Well there are several things that can be done and here are the items I've been pursuing:
- post a comment on the FAA interpretation. I put mine in the next day after it was released. Quality is less important than quantity, so well-though-out comments do the best (I addressed some slop in the language of the interpretation regarding the LOS business).
- participate in the NPRM process when it reaches that point. That's later on, where you actually see the rule in "beta" form and you can make comments directly on what FAA proposes as the actual rule. Same idea there - address the points and don't just harangue the FAA. Hopefully I'll still be in the hobby by that time.
- counter misinformation whenever and wherever you can. On online forums like this one, where I've countered your ignorance and misinformation and that of others on here, and out in the field with other r/c'ers. That I've been actively engaged in with some of the locals I fly with who've never seen anything flown FPV. My trex 800 astounds them, mainly because of how much wind I can fly it in and still keep it pinned over the ground in a hover, etc.
- keep enjoying the hobby safely and responsibly. I don't quit flying FPV just because some ignoramus or group of ignoramuses who know nothing about it tries to call it a "crutch" or "dangerous" or a second-class citizen behind LOS flying. Instead, I demonstrate it to friends and other r/c'ers so they can see what it's all about.

LS
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07-06-2014 05:39 AM  6 years ago
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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- counter misinformation whenever and wherever you can. On online forums like this one, where I've countered your ignorance and misinformation and that of others on here, and out in the field with other r/c'ers. That I've been actively engaged in with some of the locals I fly with who've never seen anything flown FPV. My trex 800 astounds them, mainly because of how much wind I can fly it in and still keep it pinned over the ground in a hover, etc.
- keep enjoying the hobby safely and responsibly. I don't quit flying FPV just because some ignoramus or group of ignoramuses who know nothing about it tries to call it a "crutch" or "dangerous" or a second-class citizen behind LOS flying. Instead, I demonstrate it to friends and other r/c'ers so they can see what it's all about.
The last two (see above) don't involve any of the key decision makers and have zero influence with the FAA.
  
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