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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Please HELP......450 Tail holding help
06-18-2014 12:02 AM  4 years agoPost 21
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Final results
Set delay to full 100% in small heli settings and turned gain down 1.5 which leave me at 68% gyro gain. Could try 0 delay in large heli setting and get good results a well but I'm 100% satisfied with tail.
This is all for 70% gov.

tail holds great just did mild 3d and threw everything I could at this thing which isn't much of anything crazy but tail is rock solid in hard pitch pumps, climb outs, and held good in FFF, flips, loops, rolls, hard piro stops and tail stops on a dime it's so crisp no bounce back but not mushy in anyways. Tail didn't budge an inch in half piro flips, tic tocs, inverted climb outs everything I had and tail performance was amazing.

I'll try 80% gov tomorrow I've had enough for one day and I'm satisfied with everything so I can relax now.

Want to thank everyone for your input you guys are great, thanks a lot.

I'll updated info once I run 80% gov and let you know how tail does with higher headspeed. I can only see it to be more locked in at almost 3500rpms but I'll report back.

Again thanks guys

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06-18-2014 02:40 AM  4 years agoPost 22
AWittleWabbit

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O.C., CA

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Hi Brian,

I'm glad to hear you got it sorted. Thank you for reporting back thoroughly, I'm sure it will help someone in the future.

It sounds like you have it close, if not spot on. Crisp stops and strong tail make the 450 so much more fun to fly.

Don't be afraid to up the headspeed. The tail just gets better when tuned to it.

Heli-itis sufferer.

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06-18-2014 11:00 AM  4 years agoPost 23
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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I prefer a higher headspeed but I wanted to get it dialed in at 70% gov so I can have 2 flight settings I will be trying to dial in 80 % gov mode today cause I'd prefer to fly in that so I'll report back.
Again thank you all

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06-18-2014 12:00 PM  4 years agoPost 24
Richardmid1

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Leeds, England

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Glad you have it sorted now and thank you for your detailed explanations, it will help others trouble shooting tail problems.

I would just point out that with an Align DS520 or Futaba S9257 tail servo you should need 0 delay.

Also the tail will hold much better at 80% gov Vs. 70% because the tail is obviously spinning faster so has more thrust but also because you have less rpm headroom (too much headroom for the governor will cause too much yaw torque from the motor accelerating when you hit the pitch, this is why I suggested trying it out of governor and just a straight line throttle curve).

Another little thing is the tail blades, are you using the KBDD tail blades? IMO they don't perform as well as the stock Trex 450 Pro tail blades.

60% of the time, it works every time!

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06-18-2014 01:19 PM  4 years agoPost 25
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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That's my thoughts exactly on delay, to me I would of thought 0 delay for that servo cause my other 450 run 0 delay ( ds520 ) but I was getting so much bounce back with quick rudder inputs and piro stops I slowly increased my delay till I got it crisp with no bounce back . Took a few battery packs to get it but I thought it might of been my gyro gain setting I was mistaken bounce back for a wag but if I decreased my gyro gain even by .5 it started to affect tail authority and was getting minor blowouts again. Like I said I'm going to dial in gov mode today at 80% and I'm sure I'll have just as much success and a more locked in feel.
I'll more than likely swap out the 11t pinion for a 12t and get even greater headspeeds with same gov. % 's so there's a bit more tweaking to come yet.

I am running KBDD tail blades 61mm and have always had good results with them but I'm going to throw a set of edge CF on and see.

Anyone try a set of the 450L dominator tail blades on a 450 or are they to large? Or would there be a negative effect without extending tail boom and running the larger main blades?

Also anyone have any flight time on a dominator? I've been looking at them lately and they are a bad a$$ heli. I'm not sure if I'm ready to tAke the plunge into fbl setup yet though. My other 2 450s are the pro v2 flybarred same with both of my 250s ( flybarred ) I've heard good and bad about 3gx an a decent fbl unit isn't cheap and seem intimidating setup wise. Any thought?

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06-18-2014 02:04 PM  4 years agoPost 26
Richardmid1

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Leeds, England

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You will always have some slight wag or bounce back on quick rudder inputs, only way round that is to lower the gain. A good thing to check is if your boom supports or boom clamp have worked loose, they should be solid. Grab the heli by the frame at the back where the boom goes into the frame and wiggle the tail left and right with your other hand, keep a close eye on your boom supports and note any play or flex and do your best to reduce it.

60% of the time, it works every time!

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06-18-2014 02:43 PM  4 years agoPost 27
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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I tried that, reduce my gyro gain an started to get minor blow outs again. But had a good amount of bounce back still so increased delay till there was no bounce back or quick wag which ended up being full delay. My tail is not mushy by any means but am I now chancing something by having full delay set on that tail servo? So I decrease my delay some to get a slight bounce back on hard rudder inputs? That is once I check your boom theory.

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06-18-2014 03:36 PM  4 years agoPost 28
Richardmid1

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Leeds, England

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So I decrease my delay some to get a slight bounce back on hard rudder inputs?
That is what I would do yes.

Another thing I used to do before going FBL (new FBL tail gyros are much improved over the old stand alone flybarred tail gyros) is to offset the servo arm about 20 degrees forwards at hovering tail pitch instead of at 90 degrees, this equalises the servo travel from left to right limit and thus equalises the stopping performance between left and right piro stops (stops are always harder/bouncier when stopping from a left rudder piro). This reduces the bouncing and allows a slight increase in tail gain. You also want between 80 and 90 degrees total servo throw from limit to limit, this will give you an idea of the arm length to use. Lastly make sure the tail control rod is well supported (don't put the supports too close to the ends, this bends the control rod as the ends move in an arc.) and as straight as possible and make sure the ball joints aren't tight.

60% of the time, it works every time!

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06-18-2014 04:20 PM  4 years agoPost 29
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Ok I'll give that a shot as well makes perfect sence so any improvements are worth an attempt. Again thanks a lot I'll post flight updates later today.

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06-18-2014 10:39 PM  4 years agoPost 30
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Want to say thanks to richardmid1 for that last tip.
Checked boom and vary minimal flex to none depending on how hard I tried to move it without bending it. So satisfied there and my tail control rod supports were fine as is cause I don't set them near ends to allow for flex in control rod.
I moved servo horn slightly forward ( eye balled ) to about 20 degrees maybe slightly less. I reset my limits and was at about 80% give or take a few on servo throw in each direction and setup in rate mode once more and got 0 drift . Once in heading hold I set delay, slowly moved my delay down in increments cause tail did feel slightly mushy at start. After some testing I'm down to about 10-15% delay ( maybe less seeing dx6i has no percentage just went into "monitor" under setup list to get more precise reading on where stick position was while setting delays) and 69.5% on gyro gain which was slightly higher than what I had yesterday but not much and tail is great. Rock solid and tail stops on a dime in piro stops and with quick rudder inputs it's vary minimal on bounce back almost none on right rudder and minimal on left but I can live with it cause it's really minimal and I highly doubt I'll be putting such hard rudder inputs and stops like I was doing while testing when I'm out flying around. So this was my update info on that.
Oh still at 70% gov. With what's listed above.
Now I'm out to play with 80% gov mode, do some fine tuning and this should be fun with a higher head speed...enough typing ... Stick time ( little excited for this )

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