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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Please HELP......450 Tail holding help
06-17-2014 02:52 AM  4 years agoPost 1
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Im so lost on what to try as far as this tail goes i can not get it to hold to save my life, am i missing something here. sorry if this is in the wrong place, new to the forums and not sure how this works yet so sorry in advanced. to give some info on my setup and issue heres a brief run down.

tarot 450 tt pro v2 (flybar version)
turnigy 2223 4400kv motor / 11t pinion
turnigy ae65a esc
922mg cyclic servos
align gp790 gyro
futaba s9257 tail servo with stepdown
3s 2200mah 30c lipos
dx6i

align upgrades are complete head assy, main shaft,main blocks, main gear, one way, toque tube assy, complete tail. started as clone but switched out almost everything with spare align parts except frame basically. i did this for fun thinking it would be easy and cheap seeing i had so much new spare stuff laying around.

so my issue is i can not get this tail to hold at all. ive went threw setup at least a dozen times. setup is currently at +/- 11 on collective, +/-6 on Cyclic, both are to a T. ive done the mechanical setup on the tail a dozen times. servo horn 90, no slop in the tail, no binding. setup in rate mode and tail does not drift or move at all with no trim settings. switch over to hh and tail seems locked in no drift dead on and can sport fly (circuits, fig 8, etc) all day long and it feels solid as soon as i go to try any kind of 3d (easy to mild, im no pro) the tail blows out big time. gain settings do vary little, ive tried moving ball on servo horn from between 9.5mm to 10mm to 7.5mm and no better results ive tried tons of delay settings with each ball link position even to the point where i found a thread to incrase delay till tail was "mushy" set gyro gain and then fine tune delay to get tail crisp again but no luck there either. i can get the delay lock in where tail will stop on a dime and no bounce back or mushy feeling tail but i can not get the tail to hold and today almost crashed. best save i ever had today. if i go extremly easy on collective during flips or rolls its not to bad maybe 15-30 degree blowout depending on how agressive i am with pitch changes. if i try any kind of punch out, or quick pitch pumps its a 90 degree minimum blowout. and today i thought tail was a little better after hours of trial an error and tried tic tocs and as soon as i got into them full 360+ degree blowout and almost lost it. after that ive just been going back threw setup over and over today and no matter how much gain i use heli yaws left in a pitch pump ( not trying anymore 3d after a near crash today from tail ) ive even maxed out my gain to 100% with tail wag and still wont hold in pitch changes. if theres something mechanical im missing please help me out. ive tried taking off blades and spool up several times no vibrations, no binding anywhere, no play in anything, ive gone threw everything i know and no progress which sucks cause im doing more tinkering than flying and ive never had this much trouble before.

should i try a metal plate sandwiched between gryo and frame? will that have any major effect? Tail blades? im running kbdd blades now and have had good success on my other helis with them, CF mains. is my govener to high? im running governed and since dx6i only has 2 flight mode settings ( mornal and stunt )my head speed is at 3230 at 70% (normal mode) and 3480 at 80% (stunt mode) which doesnt feel overpowered for a 450, IMO.
Any help would be great. I did this as fun cheap project build cause i had spare align parts laying around but its turning into a night mare.

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06-17-2014 03:40 AM  4 years agoPost 2
icanfly

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ontario

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all this while you flipped into hh mode while flying?

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06-17-2014 03:54 AM  4 years agoPost 3
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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....? Not sure what your asking. I fly in HH but tried mechanical setup in rate mode once I got that dialed in to hover with no drift I then switched over to hh and tried to set my gains I no longer have a rate gain programmed into my tx cause again with the dx6i you really only get 2 setting for everything normal /stunt . Gyro gain 0/1 so once I got tail set in rate mode I then use gyro gain 0 slot for flight mode normal which is running governed at. 70% headspeeds were listed above, an stunt mode which is governed at 80% and I'd use gyro gain slot 1 for this so when I spool up heli in normal mode I'm in 0 slot gyro gain and once flying around if I wat to switch to stunt mode 80% gov. (Higher headspeed) I flip gyro gain to slot 1 to be able to compensate for headspeed difference and gain setting. If that's what you were referring to to make sure my gain settings weren't the same for each cause headspeeds vary so gyro gain is going to be differnt.
I did look over tail again and I'm seeing more slop in the pitch slider than before which could be the cause of the issue not getting any better no matter my settings or adjustments but it's been like this from day one I've been trying to get it dialed in for weeks ( every few days mess with it till I'm frustrated) but earlier today it has 0 play anywhere now there is a vary small amount of play in pitch slider so could be the cause of why no settings seemed to help today but I don't feel it's the root of the problem cause at 0 play or slop anywhere for maybe 20 setup and testing flights no luck with anything

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06-17-2014 09:12 AM  4 years agoPost 4
AWittleWabbit

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O.C., CA

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Are you using the short dog bones on the yoke?

https://www.rcdepothobbies.com/Alig...83_p/h45183.htm

Do you have full right tail pitch? Is the tail hub at least even with the end of the tail shaft? Some grind a larger flat and mount the hub ~ 1-2mm further out to get more right yaw pitch.

Lastly on mechanical, have you moved the tail control rod by hand while spooled up (no blades tail servo disconnected) to check for binding? There was a long thread a ways back where the tail hub bearings would bind under load and cause all sorts of tail issues. This does not apply to the newer tail with thrust bearings.

I've only had the Align GP750, superb gyro! I've not heard much of the GP790. Maybe some else can advise with that end. I would hope the 790 would be just as good.

North of 3400, the tail should hold rather well. I've tried kbdd and have no complaints about their performance. I just wish they were carbon. I'm using the extinct Edge 61mm at the moment.

I was using the poor man's 9257(9650 w/9257 gears) for a while. I found using the outer hole on the round wheel the best, YMMV.

I hope this is helpful. Do post back if you find the cause or have more questions.

Heli-itis sufferer.

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06-17-2014 12:09 PM  4 years agoPost 5
Richardmid1

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Leeds, England

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Take it out of governor mode and use a flat throttle curve of 90-100 in idle up and report back. Also make sure you have around 40 degrees of RIGHT rudder pitch (slider towards the tail case).

60% of the time, it works every time!

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06-17-2014 04:25 PM  4 years agoPost 6
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Yes I did try moving the tail pushrod when I removed blades and did spool up when checking for vibrations. Took off ball link on servo end spoole up an tried to manually move it and no binding under load. I am running the tail pitch slider with the small pushrods ( dog bones whatever you want to call them) I was thinking the slight play in tail pitch slider was resulting in no improvements last night but the more I think about it wouldn't tht just case a slight tail wag more than anything. I'm just racking my brain around this to much and maybe over thinking it. I was going to try and move ball link back out to 10mm cause it seemed when I moved it into get more resolution to try and help with torque load it holds the heli after it yaws at about 30 degrees but takes longer to try an correct it as where when ball link was at 10mm it would correct it was faster but would slowly keep yawing throughout climbouts. I will try to move blade grip holder flush to end of shaft tonight and re-check tail pitch again.

Would govener mode really affect the tail this much? My other 450s did not have this issue with tail blowouts and they both run in gov. Mode. I'd like to keep it in gov mode if possible if you thinks it worth a shot to see if my gov gains are to high then I re-program my esc and run a flat throttle curve or would it be best to run a v curve, I just hate how the heli feels sluggish upon pitch changes. I'll try some of these out tonight and see how far I get and report back.

Thanks guys for all the input.

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06-17-2014 04:36 PM  4 years agoPost 7
The3dcrasher

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Peabody MA USA

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Hi Brian, when you put heli together did you put tail grips on backwards? The tail grips should be leading tail blades, do you have pics? Also align bearings were an issue with v2.

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06-17-2014 06:12 PM  4 years agoPost 8
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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I could post some pics but I'm almost positive tail grips are on correct to where they are leading I got the entire tail assy complete and it matches my other 450s alls I did was tear down and loctite everything to be 100% positive I can double check but almost 100% they are on correct cause I initially thought that but compaired it to my other helis and nothing seems differnt. I did piece by piece when loctiting tail and head to be sure of this problem. But I'll double check

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06-17-2014 06:28 PM  4 years agoPost 9
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Here's a picture ( bad example ) I asked my GF to take pics and send them to me and this I what I got I'll post some more once I get home from work but tail grips seem right from what I can tell in this picture. Again sorry for poor picture it doesn't show much but at least my gf sent it to me she hates my helis. She thinks my mantel piece in my living room Is tacky and my dresser Gould be used a a dresser not a display..(have my 2 450 pros up on my mantel as decoration while I'm not using ) I think it's pretty sweet ...lol....coolest mantel I've seen beats candels , pictures, nick Nacks anyday

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06-17-2014 07:14 PM  4 years agoPost 10
AWittleWabbit

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O.C., CA

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The gov is worth a shot. Depending on the gov, it might have something to do with it. FWIW, I run a gov (YGE) and have no problems. Castle, I never had much luck with.

Do you have a different gyro to try?

Heli-itis sufferer.

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06-17-2014 08:23 PM  4 years agoPost 11
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Ok so when I got home I calculated 34.4 degrees tail pitch the way it's setup now is that enough or should it be closer to at least 40.

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06-17-2014 08:37 PM  4 years agoPost 12
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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I have a spartan quark but personally I hated it I tried it on my trex 250 when I had tail issue with that and tried about 5 differnt tail servos with the quark and had no luck I then got a gp 780 due to hearing good things about it and trying out a few servos an bam ds420 holds great a lot of small adjustments with gain and delay and moving ball link in, paired with slightly larger cf tail blades and no complaints I switched my other trex 250 tail setup to the same and both are great I know the 420 is hit or miss but in my case a major hit and now a stock pile of tail servos. Lol but I think that's my issue here I have to find the perfect combination for setup which took me weeks on my 250.

But I'm wondering if the tail pitch is an issue? I've read things from tail pitch doesn't matter guys don't check or account for that to it's gotta be x amount of degrees at this endpoint or centered. So this I'm lost on I never got this involved and technical cause my other 450s were fallow a chinglish manual and worked with small adjustments. My 250s were tons of trial and error, more money and no results till one day I tried a certain combination and tweaked a few settings and bam rock solid tail. But since I'm advancing with my flying and trying more easy to mild 3d I'm getting more picky with certain flight characteristics and my OCD doesn't help

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06-17-2014 08:46 PM  4 years agoPost 13
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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That 34.5 degrees left pitch ( tail slider towards blade grips) and 16.9 degrees right pitch ( tail slider towards tail case ) so I'm guessing I'm way off here?

Now the question is how to adjust this and be as accurate as possible? Easiest way?

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06-17-2014 09:11 PM  4 years agoPost 14
jason46

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MI

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Were you able to set the travel limit setting?

http://ms.align.com.tw/mpeg/manuals...heg79001_en.pdf

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06-17-2014 09:37 PM  4 years agoPost 15
AWittleWabbit

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O.C., CA

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You'll always need more pitch to yaw right to counter the torque.

Since you have the short links, you could try moving tail rotor hub out a mm or 2. Just grind a larger flat on the tail shaft.

If you could post an actual pic of the tail up close with the slider bottomed against the gear box it might help. So far it sounds like you don't have enough pitch. I'm curious as to why.

Heli-itis sufferer.

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06-17-2014 10:04 PM  4 years agoPost 16
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Ok I think were soooo close here thanks to --awittlewabbit... And his advise on grinding down the shaft ( flat ) to move the hub out. Once I measured tail pitch it didn't seem enough so I grounded shaft flat till the vary end it took a few try's setup wise on how far to move it out. I tried 1.2mm and reset my limits and setup in rate mode till no drift without trim once dialed in switch to hh and did delay setting slightly high to get a mushy tail to set my gain first and close vary slight yaw left in hard pitch pumps but way better. Moved hub out another 1mm to where hub end sticks out slightly past shaft but enough so set screw get a good bite on entire shaft. Went threw same tail setup ( limits, rate mode hover etc ) dialed in an back to HH and slight gain adjustments and and a few quick delay changes to get rid of mushy tail and crisp stopping with no bounce back and in hard pitch pumps and long climb out didn't budge once.

This was at 70% gov.
Ball link on servo 7.5mm out

Letting everything cool down for a few and next battery I will try 80% gov mode and adjust gain an see if I get same results.

Only question I have now is should I move the tail ball link back out to 10mm cause with limit maxed out ( left pitch ) I'm a few mm away from hub ( pitch slider towards tail blades ) but right pitch I'm ok limit wise. And travel adj in tx is set to 100% so I'm maxed out.
Or how do I correct this cause in rate mode I had to tighten ball link connectors a few turns to get a no drift hover so in terms pitch slider was slightly off center and closer to tail case

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06-17-2014 10:12 PM  4 years agoPost 17
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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06-17-2014 10:12 PM  4 years agoPost 18
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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This was after I moved hub out about 2.2 mm

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06-17-2014 10:26 PM  4 years agoPost 19
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Moved ball link back out to 10mm to see if I can max limits on both end points. Will give feedback shortly.

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06-17-2014 10:59 PM  4 years agoPost 20
Brian450

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Downingtown, pa, USA

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Ok...ball link moved to 10mm now I get full travel set up tail in rate mode locked in, no drift, no trim.
HH mode feels pretty good in pitch pumps, long climb outs. ( 70% gov ) might need full delay I tried 0 up to 75 and was get bad bounce back on quick rudder inputs as to where is shakes back and forth real quick but just seem vary odd this tail servo would need so much delay ( futaba s9257 ) and it's not gyro gain setting cause if I lower gyro gain tail won't hold in pitch pumps and long climb outs it yaws only about 10-15 degrees but holds it at that but bump up gain and holds great just get bounce back like crazy in quick rudder inputs or piro stops.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't bounce back from delay being set to low, and mushy tail from delay to high?
Do you think it's normal to have full delay in small heli mode ( align gyro -red delay settings) with this tail servo?

Ran out of charged battery packs but out of 5 packs today I'm so relieved cause this was driving me crazy and couldn't for the life of me figure this out.

I'm going to check my 450s to see how far out hub I on them cause their both locked in an never moved hub out or had this issue with them. Just curious a quick measurement for peace of mind

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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Please HELP......450 Tail holding help
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