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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Dual Power Lab8 or icharger 4010
04-14-2014 02:57 AM  4 years agoPost 41
Retired2011

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Lee's Summit, MO

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Some specs on the DPS 1200 FB supplies...

For those of you who are curious about the specs, check this out: 1.5″ x 7.75″ x 3 1/2″ and weighing in at around two pounds each with a capability to supply 900W (75A at 12V). Now THAT’S crazy!

When I'm running 3 of them they are so quiet I have to look at the leds to make sure they're on...almost totally silent!

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04-14-2014 05:28 AM  4 years agoPost 42
BradNewman

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The dps 1200 is the PS that I will be using, I already have 1 and just ordered 3 more. Chet, you are rite! They are super quiet! Especially at idle. Why did you decide to run 36v vs 48v? I thought the more volts you put to it the easier it was on the unit cause it lowers the amps? I plan to set mine up on 240v which will give me a 49.2v 100a 4800w PS I know it's WAY overkill, but in my mind my PS's will be running at only about 55-60% which should keep everything nice and cool, plus I'll only be drawing about 16amps on my 240v circuit. Please tell me if I'm thinking about this wrong.

Remember to keep everything balanced!

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04-14-2014 05:45 AM  4 years agoPost 43
Tyler

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I also have three of these smaller power supplies. I use the for my portable unit. They are great.

Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.

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04-14-2014 05:51 AM  4 years agoPost 44
KRAR

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Chicago,Illinois

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I would use the dell 6650's... you do not have to play with the ground as they are already floating.. I will be using four power supplies to provide 48 volts.. but i will have two chargers potentially.. I should create a build thread but I am doing somthing similiar to pctomlin on helifreak... just different

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04-14-2014 11:51 AM  4 years agoPost 45
Retired2011

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Why did you decide to run 36v vs 48v? I thought the more volts you put to it the easier it was on the unit cause it lowers the amps?
Going over 48v is too much on the DPL8.

Actually the supplies run more efficiently as they approach full loading.

Floating the ground on the DPS's is childs play.

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04-14-2014 12:02 PM  4 years agoPost 46
Ace Dude

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Did someone measure the increased efficiency from running a power supply near full loading versus partial loading?

Considering nearly everyone is using switching (as opposed to linear) power supplies these days I'm thinking any increased efficiency is insignificant.

  

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04-14-2014 12:11 PM  4 years agoPost 47
Retired2011

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I honestly don't know if they measured the efficiency...I just took it to be a known fact by guys that work with server supplies a lot.
I'll bet it's pretty insignificant also, though.

I've decided that this will also be my portable unit, 36v will be less load on the gen, and will still provide all of the charging power I will need...unless I get in to speed flying.

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04-14-2014 05:02 PM  4 years agoPost 48
rexxigpilot

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Florida

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May not be insignificant. Higher loads are more efficient. As an example, the efficiency of the switching power converters of the PL8 and dual PL8 varies from 93% to 83% depending on the load. That's over 8% difference. So, drastically oversizing the PS may not be such a great idea if you're looking to get the best efficiency.

Upping the input voltage too much above output voltage works against efficiency too. The PL8 can output its maximum watts with an input voltage of 26.35V, even though it can handle input voltage of up to 32V.

Your minimum input voltage should be determined by the maximum output wattage divided by the maximum input current, divided by 85% average charger efficiency. For instance for the PL8, 1344W/60A max input/0.85 = 26.35V minimum. For the dual PL8 the math works out to 1344W/40A max input/0.85 = 39.5V per half. There is really no need to much exceed the minimum required voltage needed for max. output.

This brings up the biggest reason I would pick the 4010 iCharger over the dual PL8 - the dual PL8's limitation of 40A input current. The 4010 can use up to 65A input. I frankly don't understand FMA Revolectrix's decision to reduce the max. input current of the DPL8 to 40A from the 60A input limit of the original PL8. This requires at least 39.5V input to get maximum output wattage. With the original PL8, as well as the 4010, you can get maximum output from the charger using a standard 27V power supply of sufficient output power. 27V power supplies are an industry standard since they are used to charge batteries on 24V RV and marine systems. A 48V power supply is not very common except for golf carts, and even most of them are 36V. Designing a system where you need to gang together in parallel three to four 15V-12V or two 27V power supplies is just not an acceptable engineering design parameter IMO. Also note that the output from the two 27V power supplies would need to be variable to reduce it to no more than 48V for the DPL8.

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04-14-2014 05:03 PM  4 years agoPost 49
Gregor99

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Western Wa

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Actually the input voltage safety warning on the Dual Powerlab is higher than the 4010. Operating either unit above the rated voltage may lead to a shorter operating life. Operating the 4010 from a supply where the user has received an over voltage warning is user acceptance that they operating the charger in a way that may shorten its life.

Part of the challenge is the upper voltage rating is actually different for switching supplies vs Pb batteries. With switching supplies the voltage can periodically spike above the set voltage. These spikes are normal and part of the regulation circuit attempting to cope with the uneven load of a modern charger. If the regulator is not particularly fast, the spikes can exceed the input component's voltage rating. A Pb battery does not have this issue and is safer to use as an input at higher voltage.

Revolectrix Beta Team

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04-14-2014 05:13 PM  4 years agoPost 50
Gregor99

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Western Wa

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I've test the Powerlab's efficiency. Its roughly 90% regardless of input voltage and cell count. The only exception is for a very low charge current charging 1s packs where the logic board takes ends up being a larger ratio to the output current.

When looking at end to end efficiency, most supplies will consume 25 to 50 watts each just to keep them powered up and idle. Multiple this times three or four for your configuration and take it off the top of the generator's output.

Revolectrix Beta Team

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04-14-2014 05:28 PM  4 years agoPost 51
Gregor99

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Western Wa

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This brings up the biggest reason I would pick the 4010 iCharger over the dual PL8 - the dual PL8's limitation of 40A input current. The 4010 can use up to 65A input. I frankly don't understand FMA Revolectrix's decision to reduce the max. input current of the DPL8 to 40A from the 60A input limit of the original PL8.
Actually in the apples to apples comparison, the input current limit on the Dual Powerlab is 80 amps vs only 65 amps for the 4010. There are commercially available 48v supplies from popular RC vendors. For the beta I used 48v server supplies. Not 12v supplies in series but actual 48v server supplies.

Neither charger will operate at its maximum output on 24v. But the Dual Powerlab will have a total output of about 1720 watts and the 4010 will be around 1400. When only one of the two channels are used the 4010 will have a slightly higher output. But I suspect most people would prefer higher overall output.

For those that must stay at 24v for whatever reason, two original Powerlab8s have a combined current limit of 120 amps or 2600 watts available to the packs.

Revolectrix Beta Team

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04-14-2014 05:40 PM  4 years agoPost 52
Ace Dude

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USA

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48V power supplies are quite common in industrial automation/telecom. Many of the leading power supply manufacturers (e.g., Mean Well, Cosel, Power-One, TDK-Lambda all manufacture 48V power supplies.

  

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04-14-2014 06:01 PM  4 years agoPost 53
BradNewman

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Gregor99, is there any benefit whatsoever to supply the DPL8 with 48v, while charging 6s, or should I stick to 36v? I will not be using a generator. I will be using the DPS 1200 FB ON 240v. I heard on a podcast that the charger runs better/cooler on 48v.

Remember to keep everything balanced!

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04-14-2014 09:05 PM  4 years agoPost 54
Ace Dude

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This brings up the biggest reason I would pick the 4010 iCharger over the dual PL8 - the dual PL8's limitation of 40A input current. The 4010 can use up to 65A input. I frankly don't understand FMA Revolectrix's decision to reduce the max. input current of the DPL8 to 40A from the 60A input limit of the original PL8.
IMHO this was done from an end-user implementation perspective. From a manufacturers perspective it's easier and safer (think liability) to use two 40A inputs vs. one high current. Most power supplies top out at ~1500W-1600W out from a 120V 20A circuit. In most cases providing more than 1500W to a charger is going to require 240V AC and/or running multiple power supplies in parallel/series as necessary.

Most folks don't have a readily available 240V circuit and don't want to bear the expense of having one installed. Additionally, from a liability perspective, you don't want to recommend end-users modify power supplies themselves in order to use your product. Switching power supplies do contain lethal voltages.

Again, this is just my own personal opinion on why this was designed the way it is.

  

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04-14-2014 11:21 PM  4 years agoPost 55
BradNewman

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The max input for the DPL8 is NOT 40a.... It's 80a, ....hello!

Remember to keep everything balanced!

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04-14-2014 11:38 PM  4 years agoPost 56
Ace Dude

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USA

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The max input for the DPL8 is NOT 40a.... It's 80a, ....hello!
Are you referring to my post?

I stated "two 40A inputs" which is what it has. See specs on manufacturers website here:

http://www.revolectrix.com/dpl_specs_tab.htm

The manufacturers specs state:

"Input current: 1A to 40A, software limited", but you need understand that that's per port.

  

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04-14-2014 11:50 PM  4 years agoPost 57
Retired2011

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Ace Dude
Are you referring to my post?
I don't think so Ace, I think it was this...
rexxigpilot
This brings up the biggest reason I would pick the 4010 iCharger over the dual PL8 - the dual PL8's limitation of 40A input current. The 4010 can use up to 65A input. I frankly don't understand FMA Revolectrix's decision to reduce the max. input current of the DPL8 to 40A from the 60A input limit of the original PL8.
But I could be wrong...AGAIN!

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04-14-2014 11:55 PM  4 years agoPost 58
Ace Dude

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USA

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I think the Revolectrix specs are a little confusing myself as they say:

"Input current: 1A to 40A, software limited"

They really need to say "per port" or "x2" or something to make it clearer.

  

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04-15-2014 03:01 AM  4 years agoPost 59
BradNewman

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I think the Revolectrix specs are a little confusing myself as they say:
"Input current: 1A to 40A, software limited"
They really need to say "per port" or "x2" or something to make it clearer.
I agree.
I don't think so Ace, I think it was this...
Chet you r correct.
rexxigpilot
This brings up the biggest reason I would pick the 4010 iCharger over the dual PL8 - the dual PL8's limitation of 40A input current. The 4010 can use up to EDIT:60A input. I frankly don't understand FMA Revolectrix's decision to reduce the max. input current of the DPL8 to 40A from the 60A input limit of the original PL8.
I did not design this, so what I'm about to say is just an educated guess.
The PL8 is capable of pulling 65a from a PS but can only handle 32v. While the DPL8 is capable of pulling 40a x2 (80a) but can handle 48v. It is my conclusion that the reason for this is that a higher voltage system does not need to draw so many amps to provide the same output, also lower amps and higher volts are easier on electronics. Hypothetically, If you split the DLP8 in to two chargers each one is capable of outputting the same as a PL8, but because they can run at a higher voltage they do not need to be capable of drawing 65a.

Remember to keep everything balanced!

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04-15-2014 03:09 AM  4 years agoPost 60
Tyler

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Chicagoland area

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BradNewman
I did not design this, so what I'm about to say is just an educated guess.
The PL8 is capable of pulling 65a from a PS but can only handle 32v. While the DPL8 is capable of pulling 40a x2 (80a) but can handle 48v. It is my conclusion that the reason for this is that a higher voltage system does not need to draw so many amps to provide the same output, also lower amps and higher volts are easier on electronics. Hypothetically, If you split the DLP8 in to two chargers each one is capable of outputting the same as a PL8, but because they can run at a higher voltage they do not need to be capable of drawing 65a.
This is why I chose the iCharger 3010b's and the iCharger 4010duo's, because they could accept higher voltages and pull fewer amps from power supplies, connectors, etc. I also used highest voltages possible to maximize efficiencies.

Of course my thinking may be all wrong, but I am self educated on these matters because I swim in the pool of knowledge solo (no local club or flying buddies), except for online research.

Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.

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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Dual Power Lab8 or icharger 4010
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