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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Miniature Aircraft is going under and its your fault!
04-22-2014 11:08 PM  6 years ago
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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How do you engineer the product and continue to make improvements? 10 average engineers will be able to outclass a single superior one, and often at a lower cost.
I don't agree...the problem with groups of engineers is that they tend to step on each others toes and have difficulty getting the same idea especially if they are all operating at the same level...I'll take two really good engineers with excellent experience over a room full of average so-so engineers that look at the clock all day long...

quality engineers that love what they do cost less in the long run with the proper guidance.

when I left my first tech job, I quit because they refused to give me they yearly raise ($0.50 hr at the time)...after I left they had to hire 4 engineers to take my place...why? cause I did PLC programming, HMI GUI programming, welding, machining, electronic design, control panel fabrication, microcontroller programming AND was thier 24hr service tech for the whole plant...

the key to the success of any heli (JMO)is a balance between cost, quality of engineering...and in this market, parts supply.
showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...
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04-23-2014 01:57 AM  6 years ago
BobOD

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New York- USA

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OK, then make it one good engineer and 9 draftsman versus one very good engineer trying to do it all. No matter how good you are, not having the resources will keep you down. So will not having enough time to work on the team.Team POP Secret
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04-23-2014 02:36 AM  6 years ago
kingmeow

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The Garden State, US

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Many times it's not the engineers but the management.
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04-23-2014 04:03 AM  6 years ago
HeimD

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the great southwest

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Or the bean counters, aka the accounting dept...
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04-23-2014 04:41 AM  6 years ago
Flys4Fun

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new mexico

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when I left my first tech job, I quit because they refused to give me they yearly raise ($0.50 hr at the time)...after I left they had to hire 4 engineers to take my place...why? cause I did PLC programming, HMI GUI programming, welding, machining, electronic design, control panel fabrication, microcontroller programming AND was thier 24hr service tech for the whole plant...
patting yourself on the back acknowledged, attaboy! lol
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04-23-2014 04:50 AM  6 years ago
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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Yes...

In my case and many other cases were I worked it was nearly always the management AND accounting that made life difficult and resulted in a somewhat botched projects every once in a while...then they would go hide and pretend they had nothing to do with it, leave us alone and jump back in when they felt the business owners had forgotten who really screwed up the project.

this is were EVERYBODY in a firm be it engineering Helis or designing control systems must have a clear unerstanding of the items they sell or develop.

as for draftsmen...they don't exist anymore in jobs I have worked for the most part...the engineers do all the CAD/CAM work themselves in order to speed up the process and cut costs.

now as for MA

let it go...there dead...and any business or investor that wishes to dump hundreds of thousands of dollars down an endless pit would be the only ones to try to ressurect MA in this economy and niche market.
patting yourself on the back acknowledged, attaboy! lol
yes I am, went back to visit a few years ago, Homer the plant super asked if I would be willing to go back...told him I would if he would pay me exactly what those 4 engineers were making in total...I think in retrospect the 50cent per hour was actually a pretty good deal....besides working in an explosives plant and traveling back and forth over the boarder into Mexico to the sister plant near a town where they cut yourhead off and stick it on a pike, well I'm not that adventureous anymore.
showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...
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04-24-2014 04:09 PM  6 years ago
Qrrambero

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San Francisco / Bay Area

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Mexico to the sister plant near a town where they cut yourhead off and stick it on a pike, well I'm not that adventureous anymore.
Are you talking about Juarez, Mexico?
Once upon the time it was a wonderful town to party after all the night clubs closed in El Paso
Ae
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04-24-2014 08:51 PM  6 years ago
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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...Matamoros...across the border from Brownsville Tx.showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...
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06-05-2014 01:27 AM  6 years ago
Helico-pteron

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Glenview, Illinois

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I love these threads!

OMG MA WAS SOOO GREAT. THEY MADE HIGH QUALITY KITS. THEY WERE SO WORTH IT?

out of business.....
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06-05-2014 02:33 AM  6 years ago
Gearhead

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Vt

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yeeaah, and a thanks for reopening itJim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
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06-05-2014 01:41 PM  6 years ago
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Ben Minor, I totally respect your expertise and opinions. You answer questions with the utmost professionalism and knowledge.

I do have one light axe to grind with you though. Way back.... and correct me if I'm wrong cause I'm pretty sure it was you, we talked about direct linked servos to the swash. As you stated in the post earlier in this thread about MA's use of high ratio killing servos, you also argued back then that direct servo to swash was a servo killer.

Do you still maintain that thought? Remember how so many said having links in between kept servos tighter for a longer time. Not sure if that ended up being an issue with all of the direct link setups today.

Mike
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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06-05-2014 02:15 PM  6 years ago
es1co2bar3

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winnetka california

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At the end of the day only Align will be left I predict this
will happen that why I buying Align pc of crap for all these
new comer will leave stranded after 2 or 3 year looking for parts after I buy their high price toy.
I was waiting on some honey but there aren't no Queen bee,
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06-05-2014 03:59 PM  6 years ago
Four Stroker

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Atlanta

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That little thing in the output gear of a servo with a slot in it is the vibration isolator for the pot - Futaba 1982. Without it, the pot would die in 50 flights. With it, a servo pot will last 500+ flights.

Indirect linkage does a similar thing. Of course, it is a trade off. I have replaced all of the servos on my Kalt with direct linkage. They seem to last 100 flights. My ancient XCell still has the original 9202's and my TREX has 600+ flights and counting.

That does not mean direct linkage is bad, just that you have to pay for it. The average heli at my field does not last 100 flights.
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06-05-2014 04:03 PM  6 years ago
es1co2bar3

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winnetka california

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That does not mean direct linkage is bad, just that you have to pay for it. The average heli at my field does not last 100 flights.
and what are they?
I was waiting on some honey but there aren't no Queen bee,
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06-05-2014 09:55 PM  6 years ago
ICUR1-2

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Ottawa, Ontario

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The average heli at my field does not last 100 flights.
Glad I don't fly there
spending time, paying attention
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06-05-2014 11:49 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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I've probably got 100 flights on my trex 700 FPV machine at this point. The first 3/4 of that before I converted it to FPV and probably near 100 total at this point. Crashed it only once when it threw a grip-to-swash link on takeoff and only had to replace the mast, spindle, links, main gear and a boom support.

Course I fly it on 6S now after that crash, but it's still on all its original parts except for those...

I'll bet my 800 DFC pro FPV heli will wear even longer, as its a better heli all over...

LS
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06-06-2014 02:42 AM  6 years ago
goof2

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Bristol,CT

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^^Pointless post. Just like this one.
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06-06-2014 03:52 PM  6 years ago
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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^^Pointless post. Just like this one.
Ah, good point actually, I should address the new OP perhaps lol.

If Ben had said originally that direct to swash was hard on servos, I would naturally agree with him because he's right. As a practical matter, tho, you can solve it by just putting ever stronger and stouter cyclic servos in the machine. That adds weight and cost, but it works around this particular drawback of DTS.

DTS does give a really firm positive control, I have to admit also. My trex 800 dfc pro and my now-orphaned Whip 700E are very sharp in their cyclic response, which makes them very enjoyable to fly FPV.

LS
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06-06-2014 05:32 PM  6 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Mike,

I think everyone has settled on the fact that direct link is simpler AND is harder on servos. I have gotten at this point countless emails from guys complaining that they are seeing accelerated gear wear on a relatively newly aquired model that also happened to be direct link. I don't pick on people for choosing such models because there are upsides to them design-wise like overall model height and low parts count. But, you will pay a price because there is nothing in the control loop to cushion the the brutal direct feedback for the rotor system to the servo geartrains, so don't count on getting 500 flights on a set of servos without needing to replace gears. Unlike closed loop control systems, the minute gear lash starts to build, it shows up markedly as freeplay in the control system.

The other thing design-wise that direct link cannot allow (and which arguably is a bigger reason that a purest might choose one design over another) is a linear stick input>collective and cyclic pitch output across the ENTIRE collective range. If you take for example a TT E700 and put a pitch gauge on the blade, there is pretty much a dead linear relationship bewtween the amount of collective stick movemement and resulting collective pitch change up to and perhaps even exceeding 12 degrees. Even more impressive is the fact that this relationship is maintained when large amounts of cyclic are also in place. The way this is accomplished is by blending small control arms on the servo for good control rigidity with a relatively large bellcrank that does not arc far off centerline to yield control inputs. Servos in these and similar models stay remarkable tight over time. I have tugged on Nick Maxwell's models that have hundreds and hundreds of brutal flights on the same set of servos and found them to have precious little slop in them. A bonus is that many crashes don't strip the servos, either.

So, you sorta pick your poison. Direct link is here to stay, but man I sure like TT's closed loop system with quick calibration. Its execution is such that previous downsides of push pull like pushrod adjsustment and set up are moot point. The whole darn system only uses TWO threaded rods.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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06-07-2014 01:17 AM  6 years ago
raholek

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Zachary, Louisiana

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💎Sustaining Member
DFC vs bellcrank
I have settled my fleet on bellcrank style machines. 100s of flights and minimum servo issues and low crash-parts counts.

Love the TT system of calibration. Other machines use the pinning system..it is a huge help.

Good post Dr. Ben.

***what is Escobar's planet of origin?
www.redstickrc.net ama#: 968515
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