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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › I Admit, I'm A Hater,,,,,,,,,,
12-14-2013 02:09 AM  5 years ago
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icanfly

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ontario

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I Admit, I'm A Hater,,,,,,,,,,
of STATIC E,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Because?

Every time it gets cold out around 0c or less, the dreaded "static" gremlin comes out to play.

300zyx? Zapped a few days ago in minus 4c (+26f), 450se? Zapped last week 4 minutes in at 0c (34f). I'm worried.

I have a v2 tt 450 almost finished and that"ll spell end of static demon worries during winter month flying. Doesn't help my rx is below the tail belt output drive gear on the se and it's metal post in the bearing block, aimed directly toward the rx resting on the base plate.

What is it about the cold that allows static to pass more easily from things and to build up more easily than when temps are above 10c, what? Answer VACUUM. The cold air is the result of a vacuum which means more ions of the positive (maybe -) kind wanting to go somewhere while that much easier to harvest from the atmosphere, (I think that's how it goes but could be wrong until I read up more about "Static e" and ions)

I'm convinced to go nitro on my Shuttle rebuild now, electronics far from the tail belt gear and shaft.

So here's what I got on the 450 now, I fabbed up some of my own design cf lower side frames to adapt a v2 bottom plate making enough of an error in placement (1/8th too far back) I then made my own base too. I'm beginning to put it all back together and have a grounding strap of braided copper wick running from the tail boom mounting block and crossing directly under the tail drive axle then on to the motor mount to let the built up e ground out before continuing on, to the rx below.

OK, enough said, here's a twist, can I SHIELD the t-drive axle with aluminum foil, lead tape/foil, copper sheet, magnet, fridge magnetic label, anything? I've got wires to and from the rx/gyro running beside the tail block on the outside of the frame so proximity is close. I bought a capacitor for static soak which'll be on when complete, for added protection.

My 450se heli has been very nice to me the 3 times it cut in mid flight by not nixxing the rx/gyro more than 3 feet above earth, in a slow circuit and/or hover, and at no time taking out more than a skid. It went into restart while going into idle up pitch, negative a little, and miraculously landing between things in a small area in my backyard without wrecking, truly awesome circumstances. First the tail servo gave a slight twitch then about 15 second later, KABOOM, err, crack more like it.

My 300zyx cut within a second of idle up and lift off while tapping the side of a garage the beginning of the week. Restart nixxed the tail servo sending heli up piroing slightly sideways before I could do anything but watch it hit the garage a few feet away and fall 5 ft down to some brick walkway.

Static has caused my se belt tail heli a lot of down time and aggravation, and COLD HARD CASH in replacement parts. I thought I had that gremlin managed away last year, DANG NABBIT. No fun.

My shuttle is going to stay nitro then, anything about static I should look out for? It's belt tail too.

Gonna be nice to get the tt 450 v2 done for winter flying, whodda known.

My lowers look super cool,

ZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPP!!!!!
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12-14-2013 03:57 AM  5 years ago
nitro fun

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Oc ca

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It's the dry air that causes more static electricity
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12-14-2013 04:02 AM  5 years ago
nitro fun

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Oc ca

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Maybe you can find some antistatic spray that will work on a heli
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12-14-2013 04:21 AM  5 years ago
icanfly

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ontario

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dry air, yes this is true because warmer air being less dense also is higher in moisture where static diffuses.
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12-14-2013 04:41 AM  5 years ago
Riq

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ND

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Silicone spray or graphite on the belt every 25 flight or so.
I fly logos and was victim to this a lot, and after the spray, no more.
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12-14-2013 05:39 AM  5 years ago
HotsHabit

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Idaho

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I used to load the explosives into the airbag initiators. We always had more explosions in the winter because there is little to no moisture in the air and static would set off the explosives in our loading machines.
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12-14-2013 11:10 AM  5 years ago
Retired2011

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Lee's Summit, MO

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static would set off the explosives in our loading machines.
I'll bet that can cause personal brownouts!
Chet
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12-14-2013 02:17 PM  5 years ago
icanfly

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ontario

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silicone or graphite, going to try those soon thanks. This means the ultimate culprit is friction.

In the cold months there's central heating, without a humidifier the air will be dryer than the out doors at times. What I find of interest is that when temps drop to a certain point water from the earth stops evaporating. Water becomes the lube and grounding conductor during the warmer months when there's a lot in the air but condenses and falls as dew or snow as temps decline. It stops evaporating from ground water deep below the surface too.

Friction is the bugger in a belt drive tail and I wondered whether it was with the boom interior or something else. It's actually the enclosed boom that limits airflow and where the belt stirs the air in many tiny colliding vortices. I suspect those collisions are what loose ions from molecules in the air whose bonds are lower when temps drop. The loosed electrons are picked up by the metal gears at either end of the belt. Theres a certain device built a century ago (can't remember if Faraday had something to do with it) that demonstrated this.

You've seen Static cling, where certain clothing wants to bond it's self to a person, magnetic forces and all, really miraculous.
static would set off the explosives in our loading machines.
You have to be more careful around printed circuit boards in winter too. People in the printing business have problems with high ozone and static levels. Carbon and Friction= STATIC.
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12-14-2013 02:18 PM  5 years ago
RCHSF

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NC

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If it's not at least 45F-50F or above I don't fly. Period!
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12-14-2013 02:31 PM  5 years ago
fenderstrat

rrProfessor

Aston,Pa

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Look up Van Der Graaf generatorCompass helis Support Team
PerformancePlusRC field rep
Mini Titan/SE
TEAM KBDD
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12-14-2013 03:21 PM  5 years ago
jason46

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MI

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12-14-2013 04:46 PM  5 years ago
icanfly

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ontario

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Van Der Graaf
that's the one.

from my days welding it was fun to watch the arc deflect when welding near and/or beside a magnet or something magnetized.

both tail assembly and chassis tail mounting block have been grounded but still, though about 5 minutes in, have not canceled static completely. Silicone spray or graphite are next. At least I know what to prepare for in the future with any belt driven heli.
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12-14-2013 07:34 PM  5 years ago
qraptor

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Illinois

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It would seem that graphite will be better, since it is dry and will not attract grit. Silicone should be non-conductive, but it is possible that the additives are, giving it the ability to dissipate static.
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12-15-2013 03:02 AM  5 years ago
kingmeow

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The Garden State, US

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The silcone spray is not conductive. It doesn't really dissipate static electricity but rather reduces friction at the cross over of the belt. This reduces or eliminates the rubbing that causes static.
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12-15-2013 03:13 AM  5 years ago
icanfly

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ontario

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what's the belt rubbing?
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12-15-2013 04:21 AM  5 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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You should step back a minute and think.

The Trex 450 helis, from their inception with the original 450 up through the current 450L Dominator, have never been known for suffering static electricity discharge problems associated with the belt-driven tail.

Very FEW belt-driven tail rotor helicopters have suffered this fate. The majority of helis having belt-driven tails simply do not suffer from static problems.

A few of the LOGO designs, and the original Trex 500, however, did suffer from this problem.

In the case of the Trex 500, the belt actually rubbed the front end of the tail boom tube where it entered the tube. The inside diameter of the tube, the width of the belt, and the diameter of the front drive pulley created a geometry that allowed the belt to rub the inside of the boom where it entered/exited the front end of the boom.

I test flew my first belt-driven Trex 500 only two times before I switched it over to a torque tube drive. After those two short test flights, the inside of the tail boom (front end) had obvious marks on it where the belt had rubbed.

-----

Nitro or E-power, makes NO difference if your heli is going to affected by static discharge.

-----
I bought a capacitor for static soak which'll be on when complete, for added protection.
Static WHAT? Where did this off-the-wall idea come from?

-----

You may NOT be suffering from static discharge problems at all. You are flying your heli in what would be considered very cold conditions for LiPo batteries.

Unless you are keeping your batteries WARM until you plug them in and fly, there is a good possibility that your problems are related to the inability of your LiPos to provide sufficient voltage/current as demanded by your electronics.

Meanwhile, you should really do yourself a favor and do some reading about static electricity, where it comes from, what it is, and how to control it. Much of what you have posted here in this thread about static electricity is neither real, nor accurate.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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12-15-2013 05:13 AM  5 years ago
HotsHabit

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Idaho

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Old Hippie

"static would set off the explosives in our loading machines."

I'll bet that can cause personal brownouts!
There was a few that had brownouts............lol
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12-15-2013 04:26 PM  5 years ago
icanfly

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ontario

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Much of what you have posted here in this thread about static electricity is neither real, nor accurate.
so I'm a heretic on top of a hater, hehe.

I ran a topic last spring or winter on this issue with lots of good feedback. I posted pics of a paper insulating tube for the inside of a boom no one thought much of. At no time did anyone suggest the culprit was friction on the tube or entry/exits until now.

Upon close inspection, and because I built my own design cf lower side plates for the 450se, I discovered some wires leading to and from the gyro were compromised by rubbing against the sharp cf frame sides, inner wire was in direct contact with the cf at times.

Upon reviewing the newer v2 arrangement and placement of the skids very far forward of cog, it is a design oversight to put the skids so far forward and will result in increased tail down damage to blades, tt gears, fins, associated parts. It makes the tail more vulnerable to place the skid legs more frontal than center to the main shaft. I should have corrected the flaw when I built my side frames but I made mine to fit the newer v2 original base.

side is 1.5 thick, weighs a gram more than original but is re-enforced to provide more strength to the motor mount and only other front upper mounting screw above the main gear. The other bolting location to the uppers is the front motor mount screws. The frames are 1mm off the uppers where they mount and eliminates frame spacers and long 2mm screws. The base is my own because the original v2 initially was placed a little too far back on my sides, and I added a bracing between the front and back halves of the leg portions below the main gear for more motor mount rigidity toward the rear. A future design of the uppers is next with not much re-configuring of anything, only better looking, lol. Do enjoy (more to come, maybe a complete, maybe)

Hole where the gyro to rx wires go is sanded round and any other contact with cf has a bit of electrical tape on the cf tp prevent CHAFFING.

It just came to mind to adapt the belt guide/tension rollers from the 300x to the 450 in front og the boom mount. there's a hole on either side of the frame (square), it weights next to nothing, and will pinch the belt a little closer to the center than the standard configuration.

Regarding the lipos and clod temps? (clod? COCO-OLD I meant to say, correction overruled). I hook up the battery indoors then carry the heli to the patio and go for some mellow circuits and orientation, and some testing of probs like this. The battery maintains internal temps through out the duration of cold temp exposure.

Every detail on a heli from tolerances to electronics to bearings to sharp cf edges and layout is always a factor in the ultimate outcome over a long term use quotient,

hehehe I used the word "quotient" lol, and it fits. ( I feel like saying a big BEEYATCH right now, haha) All that foot of nice snow out today and no heli to blow it around right now, shucks.
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12-15-2013 07:06 PM  5 years ago
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Heretic, no. Uninformed? Yes.

The post from a year ago does not increase your credibility on this topic as you didn't really learn much from that past post.

You may recall, as that last post came to its end, you were going to use the static electricity generated in your heli to charge you batteries. How did that work out?

Whether no one commented about the belt and tail boom then is also of no consequence. This thread seems directly aimed at static, the tail boom, and how to control it. The Trex 500 was one of the FEW helis that suffered this problem. The 450? Not very much so.
discovered some wires leading to and from the gyro were compromised by rubbing against the sharp cf frame sides, inner wire was in direct contact with the cf at times.
Now THAT IS a problem that can and will cause erratic operation of your radio. Time to fix that.

When I build a heli having carbon fiber sides, the first step in the process is to carefully sand ALL edges using 400 - 600 grit wet or dry sandpaper, wet, to remove the sharp corners. When installing radio gear I pay close attention to make sure the wiring is protected if it has to go through a hole, or around a corner.

Attention to details in the build will prevent many problems down the road.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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12-15-2013 08:24 PM  5 years ago
fenderstrat

rrProfessor

Aston,Pa

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why the need to make things so complicated or add extra stuff to the heli(capacitor for "soak" ).Ground the boom and you are done,correct?or am I missing something?Compass helis Support Team
PerformancePlusRC field rep
Mini Titan/SE
TEAM KBDD
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