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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › how about signal loss.. instead of brown outs.. how do you make it happen?
12-10-2013 01:41 AM  5 years ago
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Craigdieslemac

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Valdosta, Ga USA

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how about signal loss.. instead of brown outs.. how do you make it happen?
I am trying to create the dreaded "brown out" in order to hopefully never experience one... I have done everything short of driving a mile and half down the road to my buddies house and trying to control my heli from there and I have yet to lose connection. I am using 2 DSMX sats and have them on the inside frame of my diabolo and the TX is a JR 11X. I have placed it inside my truck, closed the doors and gone inside my house to the other end in the master bath and still had control. I've locked it in a closet at work, a brick and metal hangar, and gone to the other side, and still had control. How do I create this condition? wrap it in aluminum foil? Throw it in a lake? lol.. you get the point, is this an exaggerated thing, or is it something to genuinely be concerned with on a 2.4GHZ signal that doesn't seem to care about metal or brick buildings...
Here is a pic of my sats..

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
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12-10-2013 01:46 AM  5 years ago
Retired2011

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Lee's Summit, MO

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How in the heck do you know if it's still working when you can't see it?

Must be a Lime-A-Rita thing!
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12-10-2013 01:48 AM  5 years ago
Retired2011

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Really though, I'll be interested in the answer...it might make a difference where I place mine.
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12-10-2013 02:00 AM  5 years ago
HeliAdict

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Texas

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Brown outs deal with low voltage. Below 3.8 volts if I my memory is'nt to bad.
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12-10-2013 02:05 AM  5 years ago
doorman

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Sherwood, Arkansas

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Brown Outs..
Typically the brown out was not a range problem, but a low voltage cut off.
It seemed to happen when most everyone was still running the 4.8 volt packs that were the standard for years!!
Hope this will help you with your experiment!!

Stan
AMA 2918-Team Spin Blades,,Castle Creations, Unique Aircraft
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12-10-2013 02:12 AM  5 years ago
Craigdieslemac

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Valdosta, Ga USA

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I use the buddy system.. lol.. I usually have someone stay with the heli and I go somewhere else. I do a set pattern of movements and see if thats what happened. If I have no buddy.. I have a video camera setup.
I never heard the voltage thing, I shouldn't experience that as I use 2S 2100mah packs that could go for weeks without recharging. People have commented about the placement of the sats causing "brown outs" or a loss of signal, and I for one, cannot make it happen. People have said the carbon frames could block the signal.. well if my house can't block the signal, or brick walls and metal doors, I doubt carbon frames could, maybe if they were encased in them. Also, they are very close together, that raises questions in peoples minds... Maybe someone smarter can clue us all in.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
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12-10-2013 02:12 AM  5 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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I am trying to create the dreaded "brown out" in order to hopefully never experience one
How do I create this condition?
Psssst...you're barking up the wrong tree

...the secret is...

Run your system with a crappy power supply that is unable to maintain adequate voltage (greater than 3.5 VDC under serious load).

BROWNOUT is NOT a loss of transmitted signal, it is caused by the local power supply to the receiver not being maintained above 3.5 VDC, the point below which the electronics in the receiver simply don't work.

BROWNOUT has NOTHING to do with received signal strength, it has all to do with battery voltage.

Early on, people continued to want to use their standard 4.8V nicads/NiMh batteries, switch harnesses, and lots of long leads to hook up their equipment. You could get away with that in the analog world of 72 MHz and analog servos. At the same time people were still hanging on to the 4.8V nicadNiMh power supply, they were moving away from analog servos to digital servos which require a higher average operating current than their analog counterparts. As people have finally begun to realize that 2.4GHz, digital servos, and FBL controllers require steady, adequate power to operate reliably, the "brownouts" have become a thing of the past.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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12-10-2013 02:16 AM  5 years ago
Craigdieslemac

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Valdosta, Ga USA

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Sorry, I thought the term brown out was used for signal loss, no matter the cause.Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
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12-10-2013 02:19 AM  5 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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I thought the term brown out was used for signal loss, no matter the cause.
Don't forget, the Futaba crowd uses the term to disparage Spektrum and JR radios, in general.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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12-10-2013 02:25 AM  5 years ago
Craigdieslemac

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I'm too new to the community to know that... I just want to know it what conditions this thing would ever lose the signal. The frames obviously can't cause it.. a brick house can't cause it.. being encased in a Ford F250 can't cause it.. lol.. you get where I am going. It seems people have an idea in their heads about where the sats belong, and since I am new to the community, I was never filled in. So I put them wherever I liked, then I do some looking around and there is all kinds of advice on where to put them. People have graphs and spreadsheets.. lol.. I am more of a trial and error kind of guy. I believe in the tangible.Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
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12-10-2013 02:32 AM  5 years ago
Santiago P

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Dayton

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I am trying to create the dreaded "brown out" in order to hopefully never experience one... I have done everything short of driving a mile and half down the road
What you are trying to create is a signal fade out.

Fade outs or drop outs are influenced by signal to noise ratio drops, meaning the outside RF (noise) either drowns your signal, OR, your signal strenght becomes so weak that your RX cannot make up (hear) what the Tx is telling it.

A long distace between you Tx and Rx AND/OR a bunch of RF noise in the band you operate could cause a fade out. Having yout Tx or Rx antennas completely blocked could cause one too.

A system's range limit is defined by the point where the Rx can no longer receive enough signal packets to reliably control the vehicle.

Futaba FASST, Spektrum DMSX, and JR DMSS use error correction for signal drops and packets drops, the Rx fill in the gaps up to a point.
When the gaps (info packet drop) become too big, the Rx results into their fail safe mode. (the technology used is different by all three and I'm not getting into that one)

Brown out, like the guys posted is a momentary power outage, or blink, that causes the Rx to reset, and the pilot to brown his pants.

Santiago
Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
FUTABA.USA - Team Kontronik - Scorpion Motors-
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12-10-2013 02:38 AM  5 years ago
doug p

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blaine mn USA

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How abought static,T REX Belt drive on a 500 Brown out city
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12-10-2013 02:43 AM  5 years ago
Santiago P

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Dayton

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Static is a whole different monster

Static is a outside discharge of electricity created by any mechanical part to the control system that would cause the effect of not a fade out, but uncommanded wild inputs, and sometimes a Rx reset.

In extreeme cases it could damage your Rx and other components.

Santiago
Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
FUTABA.USA - Team Kontronik - Scorpion Motors-
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12-10-2013 02:52 AM  5 years ago
Craigdieslemac

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Valdosta, Ga USA

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well in that case, brown out is correctly used. If I were to lose signal to my G700 or the Diabolo, I would for sure Brown Out my pants.Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
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12-10-2013 05:09 AM  5 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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With a radio system that is functioning normally, it is difficult to achieve complete signal loss as you are trying to do. Your best bet is to put your transmitter in "range check mode", then start walking till you lose signal.

As you have already demonstrated quite convincingly to yourself, you have been unable to duplicate a scenario that will produce signal loss.

Mount the receivers as recommended by the manufacturer, and go fly. You have shown your installation is reliable. If your setup will support a Spektrum Flight Log, spend a few dollars, install it, then read the data out of it to see how the receivers are really performing.

Signal loss, brownouts, most of the other dreaded stuff you read about is not a common, everyday occurrence.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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12-10-2013 05:27 AM  5 years ago
Craigdieslemac

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Thanks DK! I never knew such a device existed. I'll be ordering one tomorrowAut viam inveniam aut faciam
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12-10-2013 11:15 AM  5 years ago
Retired2011

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Lee's Summit, MO

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Great thread for me too, being new as well.
It's funny how many rumors and myths are around, about so much of what we do in this hobby.

Also good to know the real meaning of Brown pants...I mean Brownout.
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12-10-2013 11:57 AM  5 years ago
Pistol Pete

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Seffner, FL

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Not mentioned is that you need to set your failsafe if you havent.

Once done its tested by turning radio off. Consult you Rx manual for proper set up.

Failsafe should kill power to the motor (or idle for engines) and return servos to a position of your choice... usually all centered.

This is what you are after but thought its called brownout. given that a loss of signal might cause the same effect in your pants....brownout...closely related.
~~Enjoying the hobby one flight at a time~~
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12-10-2013 12:09 PM  5 years ago
Four Stroker

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Atlanta

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As Dave has indicated, use Range Test power. Log the fades from each antenna or look at the telemetry screen. Walk all around the heli and check every direction. You will find weak spots and weak antennas. Do this at the edge of reception which isn't much in range test mode. Remount or reorient weak antennas.

This is the method used to determine 20 years ago that Deans antennas were not such a good idea.

If you are flying 3D and never get more than 300 feet away, forget about it.

P.S. This is also how you test your BEC/Regulator. If you compare range test distance with a straight battery and then the BEC and get a substantial difference in distance, don't use it. I have gotten a 4 to 1 difference with switching regulators.
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12-10-2013 12:23 PM  5 years ago
Retired2011

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Lee's Summit, MO

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What about having Spektrum/JR sats with the antennae oriented 90 degrees from each other?
I see Spek. recommends it...is it really advisable?

Can you get similar info (Spektrum Flight Log) from the Vbar log?
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Home✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › how about signal loss.. instead of brown outs.. how do you make it happen?
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