RunRyder RC
WATCH
 3 pages [ <<    <     1     ( 2 )     3     NEXT    >> ] 2177 views TOPIC CLOSED
HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › belt vs shaft?
10-31-2013 02:19 AM  4 years agoPost 21
Retired2011

rrElite Veteran

Lee's Summit, MO

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

When you have an electric motor that makes more than 11 horsepower, does it really matter if the belt has a little bit more drag than a torque tube?
Not at all, to me!
Belt drives are much cheaper to repair after a crash - usually no damage at all. The TT guys are constantly replacing shafts and gears after a crash, or even a minor tail touch they need a gear or two...I kinda feel sorry for them sometimes - NOT.

Chet

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 02:38 AM  4 years agoPost 22
RAK402

rrElite Veteran

Alhambra, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

"TT for me, belts build electricity like our power plant at work, Over the years. I had many lockouts , tail swing outs. Motor cutoff.
Solved this problem with TT here in alaska"

This is a reasonable point-I have experienced this in SoCal in the Fall, when the air is cool and dry.

This can be completely prevented by grounding the tail boom to the motor mount (I have done this on my Trex 600E, 6HV, 6HV-U, 7HV, and Logo 6003D).

The silicon spray used for lubrication helps eliminate the issue as well.

Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 02:57 AM  4 years agoPost 23
BobOD

rrElite Veteran

New York- USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

motor that makes more than 11 horsepower
Justin, I'm surprised you think that is anything meaningful or even close to reality.
Besides, it's more of an overall efficiency question being asked.
Here's a much better way of looking at it.
A 12s 5000mah pack drained to 80% in a 5 minute flight averaged about 2.3hp to the rotors. If the efficiency of the drivetrain was 5% lower then either the available power would be reduced 5% (0.1hp) for that 5 min flight or the flight time would be reduced 5% (15 seconds). Or, a combination of the two. Question being, would anyone really notice.
Similar goes for the autoing ability. Is 5% really going to be noticed?
Then, maybe the 5% is really 3% or 7%. I don't think anyone has done rigorous enough testing to know. I bet it's somewhere in that range though.

Team POP Secret

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 03:05 AM  4 years agoPost 24
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I HATE the tiny little belts on tiny little pulleys that the Align helicopters used to use because if you didn't pull the belt super tight, it would skip, but if you pulled it too tight, it would snap.

But 2013 helicopters with belt drives typically have automatic belt tensioners and thick cogged belts. You no longer need to adjust the tail boom every time the weather changes.

Belts also eliminate the gear-on-gear noise.

Technology is changing. Belt drive geartrains are improving.

Avant RC
Scorpion Power Systems
Thunder Power RC
Kontronik Drives

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 03:28 AM  4 years agoPost 25
wc_wickedclown (RIP)

rrProfessor

long beach calif

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

+1

Insha Allah made in america

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 03:54 AM  4 years agoPost 26
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Lots of interesting stuff!!! I will say I saw my friends Goblin 500 with the belts on everything and boy was is quiet and smooth. And had lots of poop. No reports of any less run time while in the air between the two types of power transfer under power. I guess the only thing left to report on users of both types would be auto rotations as and drag would be more apparent in the auto itself and the hang time. Again it would be a very subjective and non scientific but would be interesting to hear . i remember Raja did a vid just spinning the mains of a Min Air Spectra on the ground with a TT and the same sized Century belt tail and the results were really remarkable in the difference of how long they would spin. The Century belt Tail did not do well.

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 04:59 AM  4 years agoPost 27
7Quick7

rrNovice

Las Vegas

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

T.T All the way....Stop crashing, and now owning a belt driven tail will seem silly. If goblin would have made their helis with a t.t tail, Wow what an even more expensive mess that would have made for people. Had to lessen the heart ache somehow.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 06:24 AM  4 years agoPost 28
BobOD

rrElite Veteran

New York- USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I don't know about that. My impression is that the Goblins get the lowest flight times on average. Main drive is best to be geared. I like gear noise.
As for a tail drive, I held out on the belt for quite a while. Honestly, spinning a heli at low speeds does not represent what's happening under flight conditions at all. I mean you're talking about one watt difference to spin the blades with your finger if that. With a belt, the drag is more constant with speed and load...with TT, the drag is near zero at one watt but goes up with load and speed. You cannot judge that way.
Having said that, I'm hard pressed to say there is a significant difference in flight performance, including autos. But, the TT simply has more class. More expensive? Of course it is. I could drive a Golf to get to work but my Lincoln gets me there too.

Also, it does seem more people have tracking and tensioning issues with the belt. I haven't, except when there are wide temperature swings I need to retension, but it seems a lot of people do have tracking issues. Hard to put a finger on that.

Team POP Secret

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 11:32 AM  4 years agoPost 29
Retired2011

rrElite Veteran

Lee's Summit, MO

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

My impression is that the Goblins get the lowest flight times on average.
And come down with the hottest batterys, motors, and ESCs.

I never worry about belt tracking or tensioning. I do check it occasionally, but if it's not jumping off the pulley to one side or the other, and if it's not slipping cogs...I fly it. If you have to adjust tension often, you're probably running it too tight anyway.

Chet

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 11:34 AM  4 years agoPost 30
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I will add that my Trex 450 Pro auto'ed SLIGHTLY better than my Trex 450 Sport V2 with the same blades (Align 325 3G). This I believe is due to the belt being bent round those tiny pullys and the belt tension needing to be on the tight side as a result.

My Logo 600SX however auto's about the same as my Trex 700E both with Align 3G blades, yes the Logo is much lighter but uses 600mm blades vs. 690mm blades on the 700E. This I believe is down to the belt going round the much bigger pully at the front vs. the tiny one on the 450.

So to some up for me anyway, if the belt drive goes round bigger pullys (1. Its not being bent as much or as quickly 2. Belt tension can be slacker without skipping) there is so little difference its not worth mentioning. Also im happier flying lower with a belt drive tail!

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 11:42 AM  4 years agoPost 31
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

And come down with the hottest batterys, motors, and ESCs.
This is partly due to the canopy being so enclosed and the fact that if your the type of person to like Goblins then you are probably running it at 9000 rpm because thats what Kyle Kammerer Alsaadi runs! But I will agree that the whole drive train is inefficient on the goblin, not just the tail, its actually probably the most efficient part!

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 11:51 AM  4 years agoPost 32
Retired2011

rrElite Veteran

Lee's Summit, MO

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Goblins then you are probably running it at 9000 rpm because thats what Kyle Kammerer Alsaadi runs!

Yep, seems to be a lot of that also!

Chet

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 12:35 PM  4 years agoPost 33
Craigdieslemac

rrKey Veteran

Valdosta, Ga USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Is there data to out there showing the Goblin drive train to be less efficient, or is it just because of all of the moving parts? I own a G700 because have you ever seen a G700? They are gorgeous.. I don't spin her up to 9000 RPMS.. 2250 every once in awhile, but mostly I just like to do smooth stuff around 1850 or so. My CC EDGE 160 comes down cool as can be, as do my batts. The motor, on the other hand, is always hot, but what motor isn't. I did modify my ESC case so the metal case sits against the metal heat sync on the G700, I wasn't running hot or anything, but it seemed silly to have just the plastic outer housing contacting what was supposed to be sapping heat away. There are pics of it in the Goblin section.

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 12:56 PM  4 years agoPost 34
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Goblins are like Marmite!

I think the inefficiency is due to the motor belt drive and thick slant cut main gears (which are too tight to start with!). It could however be down to the SAB blades which ive always thought needed higher HS's to get good performance.

Another reason for HOT motors in goblins is a very large percentage of people use Scorchion.. er I mean Scorpion motors! Couple that with the enclosed canopy, inefficient drive train and the user needing a million RPM makes for an egg fryer motor!

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 01:19 PM  4 years agoPost 35
Craigdieslemac

rrKey Veteran

Valdosta, Ga USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Marmite's! lol.. that is what we call the meals they deliver us while we are deployed. We stay in a compound and can't leave so meals have to be brought to us.. terrible meals..
I don't feel the drive train is in-efficient.. but that is not based on anything besides the fact that I like it, no real data. I don't use SAB blades on it, I have had the same set of Edge 713's on it since I purchased it and they fly amazing.
The motor does get retarded hot.. (thats a real temp).. I bought the new cooling mount but without real airflow over it I am not sure how much good it is doing. I haven't taken any heat measurements, I just know it is working because it is as hot as the motor. I have thought about a cooling fan, but I haven't had any heat related issues. I'm sure I will come up with something sometime as my favorite place is in the garage tinkering.

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 02:13 PM  4 years agoPost 36
shawmcky

rrElite Veteran

Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Prefer the belt to being shafted

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 02:21 PM  4 years agoPost 37
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Craig ive also found Edge blades to be a bit inefficient, again no hard data they just don't seem to auto as well as others and they are noisy blades. Also 713mm blades at 2250 rpm! Thats not helping your hot motor stay cool thats for sure! Does the motor still get hot at 1850 doing your smooth stuff?

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 03:32 PM  4 years agoPost 38
misskimo

rrElite Veteran

Alaska 17 years, before mississippi for 31y

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Well I will agree with Richard and Bob. They there. Gearing . So hard to grasp. Heli companys working with nitro nuts can come across so screwed up drive trains. The drive train in the TDR is one of the best on the market. Reason why its the best is the TT. Wich makes it better than the diabolo. Thats just my guess though. Gerd would be pissed and me for saying that because I fly for Gerd. I beg for TT from the start.
I still like it but its just sitting here under the table for a year now because of a lockout with the tailbelt and vbar. Yes its grounded. All metal and carbonfiber. Sand each down. Its grounded. Yes spray might help. But with TT. Plug and play. Yeh. TT isnt made for crashing . Neither is All helis

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 04:05 PM  4 years agoPost 39
Craigdieslemac

rrKey Veteran

Valdosta, Ga USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Rich.. that motor could spin for 3 minutes at any speed and be hot (bit of an exaggeration there). at 1850 it stays cooler.. I do a bit of switching in mid flight from one head speed to the next most of the time. It never gets so hot that I worry about it. Its not scorching or radiating heat.. its just hot to to the touch. The ESC will barely be at room temp though, it really stays cool and I have to fly a few consecutive flights to get it warm. I love the sound of those edge blades though… inefficient or not, they are efficient enough for me.. I get the response I demand from them and again, that sound is killer.

kimo - Still have to disagree that one is better than the other, but I have never had that static lock out that people talk about either. I am also not convinced that the static is caused entirely by the tail belt, it may not help, but real helicopters build up static charges too and they don't use a belt drive. it gets built up in the rotor system and the drier and dustier your climate, the worse it is. I work on Pavehawks for the Air Force and have been around a few heavy lift operations. If you ever have to hook up a load to a sling, you know to let that thing touch the ground first or it will shock the crap out of you. I am sure this occurs in our smaller aircraft as well.

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
10-31-2013 11:19 PM  4 years agoPost 40
ICUR1-2

rrElite Veteran

Ottawa, Ontario

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

My MSH Protos sent me back running to TT. That's a nice idea design but in RL too much drag.

spending time, paying attention

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
WATCH
 3 pages [ <<    <     1     ( 2 )     3     NEXT    >> ] 2177 views TOPIC CLOSED
HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › belt vs shaft?
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 13  Topic Subscribe

Sunday, October 21 - 9:45 pm - Copyright © 2000-2018 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

The RC discussion world needs to consolidate. RR is now one choice for that. Its software is cutting edge. It hosts on-topic advertising. Help RR increase traffic buy making suggestions, posting in RR's new areas (sites) and by spreading the word.

The RunRyder Difference

• Category system to allow Rep/Vendor postings.
• Classifieds with sold (hidden) category.
• Classifieds with separate view new.
• Answer PMs offsite via email reply.
• Member gallery photos with advanced scripting.
• Gallery photo viewer integrated into postings.
• Highly refined search with advanced back end.
• Hosts its own high end fast response servers.
• Hosts thousands of HD event coverage videos.
• Rewrote entire code base with latest technology.
• No off-topic (annoying) click bait advertising.
Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online