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10-30-2013 03:14 AM  5 years ago
Topic Vote0Post 1
gearset

rrVeteran

Thunder Bay Ontario

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belt vs shaft?
This is not a what system is better than the other.More of a question of,if a belt drive tail is more efficient than a shaft drive tail why is there more drag on a belt system?
Inquiring minds what to know.
Livin'............
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10-30-2013 03:37 AM  5 years ago
RM3

rrElite Veteran

Killeen, Texas - USA

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...the belt drive is NOT more efficient than the torque tube.showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...
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10-30-2013 03:52 AM  5 years ago
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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I have wondered what the difference would be in performance if the 700 Goblin had no belts and a TT and gear driven main. How much does the all belt/rubber drive sap up? I saw a Goblin 500 and it sure was quiet but at what cost?Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them
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10-30-2013 04:02 AM  5 years ago
Josh Kussman

rrApprentice

Superior, NE

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I had a logo 600 and could auto with it just as good as a TT heli but the logo is a little lighter so it seemed like you could get a little better hang time with it, couldn't tell much on drag with it. the belts a little more forgiving when you put the tail blades in the dirt.

as long as you have a good belt and TT gears both setups can be good setups and not draw much more amps than the other. when it comes done to efficient, its more the pilot pitch management than anything.
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10-30-2013 04:10 AM  5 years ago
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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Good info and I agree,,,but I was wondering what the benefits are from start of flight to finish when the motor has to push either torque tube gears and geared mains compared to an all rubber isolated platformSetup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them
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10-30-2013 04:38 AM  5 years ago
ICUR1-2

rrElite Veteran

Ottawa, Ontario

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Belts stretch and shrink they are less efficient than Gears because of friction.
If your climate is stable where you live you may never notice it.
but up here in the north belts shrink and stretch like rubber bands, It is hard to get a consistent belt tension on the tail.
I converted back to TT less to worry about IMHO

spending time, paying attention
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10-30-2013 04:59 AM  5 years ago
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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Still does not answer my question.
I was wondering what the benefits are from start of flight to finish when the motor has to push either torque tube gears and geared mains compared to an all rubber isolated platform
In other words ,,how much more power does it take to power an all rubber belt system compared to a TT and geared mains... or is it not measurable?
Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them
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10-30-2013 05:02 AM  5 years ago
JKos

rrProfessor

Redondo Beach, CA

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There have been countless threads on this topic. It's Ford vs. Chevy, really. There are great belt systems and great torque tube systems.

Efficiency wise, I'm a bit muffed that we don't have real data to support this topic. There are helis that offer both configurations. Why do we not have real numbers?

- John
RR rules!
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10-30-2013 05:07 AM  5 years ago
ICUR1-2

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Ottawa, Ontario

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how much more power does it take to power an all rubber belt system compared to a TT and geared mains... or is it not measurable?
belts use more power but the difference in power loss is very minute not noticeable to humans with out equipment to measure
spending time, paying attention
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10-30-2013 05:11 AM  5 years ago
BobOD

rrElite Veteran

New York- USA

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It's going to be difficult to get an answer to that question. Best way is to compare average flight times versus other comparable helis.

Me personally, I would never put the main drive through a belt. The tail drive is less load so less important.
Basically, the belt drive is the cheap way to do it.
Team POP Secret
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10-30-2013 05:27 AM  5 years ago
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Efficiency wise, I'm a bit muffed that we don't have real data to support this topic. There are helis that offer both configurations. Why do we not have real numbers?
I saw someone that tested a Trex 500 this way. It was a while ago so I don't remember who it was but the numbers reported were something like 3000 mah belted and 2800 mah tt hovering for 5 minutes.
Team POP Secret
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10-30-2013 05:30 AM  5 years ago
RAK402

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Alhambra, CA

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"More of a question of,if a belt drive tail is more efficient than a shaft drive tail why is there more drag on a belt system?"

Part of the problem is that people set the belt tension way too tight. This was necessary in the old days, on the Helibaby and Revolution, because the belts were flat (no teeth) running on knurled pulleys and the would slip, otherwise. The side load and tension absorbed a great deal of horsepower.

Cog belts on modern machines, can and should be run as loose as possible without them skipping a tooth. It does not matter if you can shake the helicopter and hear the belt slapping the inside of the boom. All that matters is that it does not slip.

Lubricating the belts with silicon spray also helps a great deal.

Set up properly, a belt drive does have any more drag than a torque tube at speed.

There are more bearings involved with torque tubes, two sets of gears, and two 90 degree changes in direction of torque, with torque tubes, all of which absorb horsepower.
Team KBDD/Compass Team Manger/Experience RC/Team JR Americas/WR Field Rep
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10-30-2013 05:30 AM  5 years ago
JKos

rrProfessor

Redondo Beach, CA

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I have yet to see any flight time difference that would support an argument either way. Anyone else?

Belt tail drives may feel like they have more friction at hand speeds, but everything changes at operating speed and under load.

- John
RR rules!
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10-30-2013 09:07 AM  5 years ago
Four Stroker

rrElite Veteran

Atlanta

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John, a static test of a FBL heli drive system with no blades would be a good start. Measure the voltage and current going to the motor and calculate the power to drive the tail.
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10-30-2013 11:06 AM  5 years ago
Retired2011

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Lee's Summit, MO

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Any efficiency differences between the two would be too miniscule to concern me.
I like a belt drive tail because it is much more fogiving in a crash and much cheaper to repair. In fact, I don't recall ever having to buy any repair parts for my Logo belt drive tails (except tailbooms and supports)...and I've crashed a lot while learning
Chet
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10-30-2013 12:18 PM  5 years ago
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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I think it depends on the belt drive system as to how efficient they are. The ones like on the Logo where the belt goes round a big pully at the front would be more efficient because the belt isn't being bent as far as it would round a small pully. A larger pully at the front and a larger pully at the back (Goblin and the new Protos 700) would be best for efficiency.60% of the time, it works every time!
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10-30-2013 03:29 PM  5 years ago
Craigdieslemac

rrKey Veteran

Valdosta, Ga USA

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I own and operate both types of tails. From a pilot stand point, I cannot tell the difference in them when flying, they both transmit power to the tail efficiently. Gears strip and belts stretch.. I don't feel one is any better than the other. I also believe that there isn't a lot of data comparing them because the difference is so trivial. As someone mentioned, the old Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge, which one is better? Depends on who you ask… you ask me, they are all the same they just look different.. they all perform the same exact job equally. Same same for Belt vs TT.. they look different, but perform the same job equally.Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
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10-31-2013 01:30 AM  5 years ago
Luvmyhelis

rrApprentice

Spokane, Washington. USA

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I tested both. Both did fly and hit the same soft cutoff point on my 600/700s time wise. I couldn't document any difference whatsoever since it came down to seconds. Due to flight temp air mass changes it wasn't enough to mention. TTs are vibe noisy due to end or shaft play, and out of concentric gears where they mesh. Belts are quiet. Both auto about the same. Most that depends on the main blades. The belts absorbing vibes tend to stretch/relax during power transfer. So the transfer is smoother. But does absorb some energy. The TTs tend to shock transfer more, which also eats power. But also have resistance due to the support bearings and gear couplings needed.

The one is better than the other is truly a myth unless you are building a more vibe low heli. Where belts significantly have the advantage. Bailout or self stabilty gyros using accelerometers sensitive to vibes will benefit using a belt. I have over 300+ flights on tail belts with little noticeable wear. And I do live and fly where it gets cold. And have had great TT luck also.
Also the 3D belt tail wag is also a myth from TT guys. Total crap.

Pick the heli you like.
Old cranky heli builder
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10-31-2013 01:35 AM  5 years ago
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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When you have an electric motor that makes more than 11 horsepower, does it really matter if the belt has a little bit more drag than a torque tube?Avant RC
Scorpion Power Systems
Thunder Power RC
Kontronik Drives
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10-31-2013 02:17 AM  5 years ago
misskimo

rrElite Veteran

Alaska 17 years, before mississippi for 31y

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TT for me, belts build electricity like our power plant at work, Over the years. I had many lockouts , tail swing outs. Motor cutoff.
Solved this problem with TT here in alaska
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