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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › The 1st FAA Prosecution of a Civilian Drone UAV
10-21-2013 10:57 PM  4 years agoPost 61
NQNA

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USA

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"Model Aircraft
Recreational use of airspace by model aircraft is covered by FAA Advisory Circular 91-57, which generally limits operations to below 400 feet above ground level and away from airports and air traffic. In 2007, the FAA clarified that AC 91-57 only applies to modelers, and specifically excludes individuals or companies flying model aircraft for business purposes.
The FAA guidance is available at: http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...91-57.pdf";

"Civil UAS
Obtaining an experimental airworthiness certificate for a particular UAS is currently the only way civil operators of unmanned aircraft are accessing the NAS. Experimental certificate regulations preclude carrying people or property for compensation or hire, but do allow operations for research and development, flight and sales demonstrations and crew training. The FAA is working with civilian operators to collect technical and operational data that will help refine the UAS airworthiness certification process. The agency is currently developing a future path for safe integration of civil UAS into the NAS as part of NextGen implementation."

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10-21-2013 11:09 PM  4 years agoPost 62
AirWolfRC

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I don't recall where a simple "advisory circular" qualifies as law for the purposes of enforcement or punishment.

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10-21-2013 11:22 PM  4 years agoPost 63
NQNA

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USA

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The Federal Aviation Act of 1958 established the FAA and made it responsible for the control and use of navigable airspace within the United States. The FAA created the National Airspace System (NAS) to protect persons and property on the ground, and to establish a safe and efficient airspace environment for civil, commercial, and military aviation. The NAS is made up of a network of air navigation facilities, ATC facilities, airports, technology, and appropriate rules and regulations that are needed to operate the system.

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10-21-2013 11:31 PM  4 years agoPost 64
NQNA

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10-21-2013 11:50 PM  4 years agoPost 65
lowandslow

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Spring Hill, TN

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I don't recall where a simple "advisory circular" qualifies as law for the purposes of enforcement or punishment.
Exactly.

Some people in this industry remind me of the kid back in middle school who actually wanted to be the hall monitor just so they could have an official clipboard and run around warning everyone they were going to get in trouble for chewing gum and running in the hallways.

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10-22-2013 12:56 AM  4 years agoPost 66
Retired2011

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Lee's Summit, MO

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Maybe it's just me, but I don't read anything there that is pertinent to the debate.

Chet

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10-22-2013 01:05 AM  4 years agoPost 67
El Bucho

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VA

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Some where (I will try to find the reference and post it) the FAA defines "Model Aircraft" as one that has some resemblance to a full size aircraft, and that once you put camera's etc on it and change the purpose of the flight for commercial purposes it is no longer a "model aircraft" and subject to the regulations covering UAS. (certified pilots, experimental aircraft certification, etc.) Good luck standing in front of a judge and convincing him that an Advisory Circular is not a law, it is the FAA's interpretations of their laws, so if you go against it, you are asking for it.

You also can not just fly a UAS anywhere you want to. The airspace has to be specifically approved by the FAA prior to flight. There are very few places around the country where the FAA has granted approval for these SUAs (Special Use Airspaces). All of them are over sparsely populated areas, etc. Most, if not all, are affiliated with Universities for testing or a large DoD contractor doing the same. Airspace over a town, city, neighborhood etc at this point would never be approved. The FAA would even consider you in violation of the Airspace rules if you hover a small helicopter UAS 2 feet off the ground in your front yard.

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10-22-2013 01:15 AM  4 years agoPost 68
AirWolfRC

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Good luck standing in front of a judge and convincing him that an Advisory Circular is not a law, it is the FAA's interpretations of their laws, so if you go against it, you are asking for it.
I take it you are one of those that don't understand the laws in place and therefore, out of fear, just go along with what the 800 lb gorilla says.

The judge knows exactly what the law is and is not afraid of the FAA.

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10-22-2013 01:36 AM  4 years agoPost 69
TrexVbar

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Austin, Texas, USA

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You guys wanted him to recite the regulations and you got it. It's all there in black and white. If you can't understand it, ask an adult to read it for you. You lose.

If you want risk lives and legal action taken against you by flying your drones in federally controlled airspace, be prepared for the consequences. But I will laugh when I see a "bail me out of jail" thread on Runryder made by these knuckleheads.

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10-22-2013 01:51 AM  4 years agoPost 70
lowandslow

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Spring Hill, TN

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Oh please, why are you guys even in an AP forum then? I hear fabric stores are a lucrative business... and legal. Come on, turn in your cameras, you know you want to.

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10-22-2013 02:08 AM  4 years agoPost 71
icanfly

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ontario

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I'm going to dive in right here. Why? Because only last week I went into my local hs and a man learning to fly a quad for ap was there in front of me at the service desk. He talked to the repair/parts guy about the law in this country regarding AP for hire, COMMERCIAL AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY of ANY kind. The man was learning to fly because his company had to source out aerial p work to sub contractors. Some AP hires did not provide more work within a budget that in house work could manage.

The hobby repair guy said a person needed a CERTIFICATE OF FLIGHT PLAN filed with the governing bodies and proof of INSURANCE must be provided, even if it was a short youtube clip to promote ones own small business. He did not want to give me more info after the man departed about 10 minutes later.

I visited an out of town hs this aft, quads are outselling helis, because they're easy to fly, and lots are being equipped with CAMERAS that double as video cams. A man in the sales area was getting his avp quad serviced with a gps system.

Lets face it, avp quads are becoming the next hot gadget, they practically are already. Big companies like GE, Boeing, Lockheed, well, pick ANY USA based aircraft manufacturer from this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rs_by_ICAO_name
and you get an idea of the magnitude of interests the FAA must manage not to dismiss. They want a PIECE OF THE ACTION while RC helis and quad avp ships of general "HOBBY GRADE" are small fry to them. Accidents like the Brooklyn one are bringing negative attention to the small fry aspect of avp.

Get your ducks lined up, research and do your DUE DILIGENCE, provide paperwork to any authority when asked "wtf are you doing" and be insured in case of an accident. The guys that approach the COMMERCIAL side of avp with the utmost level of professionalism will win the day.

This argument on FAA rules and/or lack of and what is allowable can go back and forth all day. My suggestion is not to wait for the law, beat it at the game by adhering to it's laws wholeheartedly and without prejudice. This will impress the authorities above all else should an accident occur. The amateurs will fall by the wayside. The authorities will listen to recommendations should there be partiality or conflict of interest but you have to be diligent. Work with them, not against them.

I'm about to undertake applying for a Flight Plan certificate due to the recent hs awakening.

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10-22-2013 02:28 AM  4 years agoPost 72
Mike Fortin

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USA

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You guys wanted him to recite the regulations and you got it. It's all there in black and white. If you can't understand it, ask an adult to read it for you. You lose.
The regurgitation of what a few are calling "laws" is frustrating.

Both lawyers and judges have already commented and made it clear that no laws or regulations exist. Besides that little nugget of information I've met face to face with one of the FAA representatives handling the implementation of these new regulations.

The fact remains that there are NO regulations, laws or rules as it pertains to commercial use of model aircraft. The continued argument that what you have posted is somehow enforceable law proves that you are either not reading what you are posting or simply trying to make others believe what YOU are mistakenly interpreting as "law".

The very fact that you are making that mistake, consistently I might add prove that what the FA has written has far too much room for interpretation.

So, we do not lose sir.

Prior to making any more statements about a subject that is so blatantly clear you have no idea about, please refrain from wasting time or spend some time doing your research.

Your best bet would be to wait until roughly 2015-2016 when the regulations are actually due to be published.
This argument on FAA rules and/or lack of and what is allowable can go back and forth all day.
Actually it can't, one side is right and one is wrong. Now laws exist.
I'm about to undertake applying for a Flight Plan certificate due to the recent hs awakening.
ROFL, now that's funny. Hobby Shops...always the best place for info that nobody actually knows the answers too!

Have Rotors, Will Fly!

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10-22-2013 02:42 AM  4 years agoPost 73
El Bucho

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VA

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[quote]I take it you are one of those that don't understand the laws in place and therefore, out of fear, just go along with what the 800 lb gorilla says.
The judge knows exactly what the law is and is not afraid of the FAA.[quote]

I am not afraid of the 800lb gorilla in the room, but I do respect it. I make my living and feed my family with my pilot license, and separately am involved in several UAS projects that are or will be going through the certification process, so it's a reach for you to assume I don't understand what's going on and am fearful of it. I do understand the laws and try to work within them so that the FAA will see me as an asset and not a liability and so I can be ready when the FAA relaxes their stance on UAS aircraft and becomes more accepting of them and the benefit they can bring.

So to answer your statement, yes I do understand the laws, and don't think anything I posted warrants you taking a shot at me and my understanding over it.

Kind Regards,
EB

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10-22-2013 03:33 AM  4 years agoPost 74
Mike Fortin

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USA

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Good luck standing in front of a judge and convincing him that an Advisory Circular is not a law, it is the FAA's interpretations of their laws, so if you go against it, you are asking for it.
If the "Advisory Circular" was the FAA's version of "their" laws than why would congress be calling upon the FAA to make up laws regarding UAS operation?

The lack of knowledge and the amount of people commenting on something they are not familiar with is, well its not shocking...it's simply the internet.

As folks "in the know" know we have our ears to the ground and are constantly aware of what is going on with what is going on in an industry that allows us to provide for our families.

Have Rotors, Will Fly!

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10-22-2013 03:36 AM  4 years agoPost 75
mr dan

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Stockton Calif

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As folks "in the know" know we have our ears to the ground and are constantly aware of what is going on with what is going on in an industry that allows us to provide for our families.
This is true! and for some even if it means being deceitful thats the sad part!

"R.I.P Roman" Citizen 0094 in the Nation

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10-22-2013 04:03 AM  4 years agoPost 76
icanfly

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ontario

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always the best place for info that nobody actually knows the answers too
your absolutely right.

It would only help to cover ones backside in the event something goes horribly wrong, that's usually when authorities get involved. If no one is bothering anybody otherwise, it's business as usual then.

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10-22-2013 12:53 PM  4 years agoPost 77
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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The fact remains that there are NO regulations, laws or rules as it pertains to commercial use of model aircraft. The continued argument that what you have posted is somehow enforceable law proves that you are either not reading what you are posting or simply trying to make others believe what YOU are mistakenly interpreting as "law".
C'mon fellers, Mike is totally correct here, and Chris is too, so there's no use attacking them. They're completely right.

As I said, tho, this is going to come down to the definition of "model aircraft". That doesn't make Mike wrong, but it will illustrate how the FnAA, er I mean FAA, works in terms of how it uses force (for both towering good and horrible terrible evil).

For example, did you know that the "annual condition inspection" for aircraft with experimental AW certificates is also not actually mandated by the FARs? In fact, they're specifically _excluded by a FAR_ from the CI requirement that applies to standard category aircraft. Strange but true (google it). So how is it that annual condition inspections do end up being required for every experimental aircraft in the US? I leave that as an exercise for the reader; it's kind of surprising how this gets done and doing the research on that is interesting. But at the end of the day, it _is_ an actual rule you can demonstrate compliance with, which is the good thing.

Now, as for the current issue, if you actually look this "model aircraft" definition and the definition of "UAS" up, you'll see that "model aircraft" is actually just a subtype of "UAS". A "UA" is just a "device used or intended to be used for flight through the air without an on-board pilot" and a "UAS" refers to the larger control system for the UA.

That alone ought to make your hair stand on end immediately when you think about trying to make a living with one.

Here's why: A "model aircraft" also fits that definition. All there is are vague exclusions here and there in AC's based on recreational use only and LOS flying. That's all that's between your commercial operation, your earnings and your estate and the FnAA. Well, turns out that monkeying with this definition is exactly how FAA is going to introduce the "gotcha" here, as I think we already all know.

Lack of regulation goes both ways and FnAA is usually the bigger gorilla in a confrontation. In fact it's always the bigger gorilla.

But, on the good side, what is or is not a "model aircraft" will be at least in some way made explicit in an actual regulation. In this way you will be able to demonstrate compliance to the satisfaction of the FAA as well as your insurance company, clients and so on. Right now, it's just he-said-she-said, which is why you can't get insurance and why there're all these fights about it on RR lol.

So yes even tho there are no regs governing it, that _doesn't mean_ FAA has no domain over it. FAA will somehow make it (il)legal in practice. That's just kind of how the system works. It's not pretty but we have to abide by it and be careful. Also, there will be a good side to the development of actual regulations as I mentioned above, so its not all gloom and doom...

LS

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10-22-2013 05:10 PM  4 years agoPost 78
NQNA

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10-22-2013 05:50 PM  4 years agoPost 79
Mike Fortin

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USA

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NQNA,

What you are posting is not a law or a regulation. My god.

We do this for a living, we know what we can and can't do.

RC Helis and Planes are effectively UAS (unmanned aerial systems)

Do yourself a favor and stop flying your helis and or airplanes and you should feel safer.

Good luck.

Have Rotors, Will Fly!

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10-22-2013 07:19 PM  4 years agoPost 80
TrexVbar

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Austin, Texas, USA

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Are you even reading? Private drone use is allowed under 400 ft. Your drone usage is not private use, so it is illegal. Making a living off of an illegal practice is your own fault.

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