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HomeAircraftHelicopterMain Discussion › Did you ever Have A Weak Spot And How Did You Overcome It?
10-09-2013 01:22 AM  4 years agoPost 1
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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Here's "real " flyers q.

Everyone has had an area of orientation they find confusing if not down right treacherous, whether it's inverted or upright.

Nose in landings seem rare but after witnessing one it didn't seem all that hard, and it isn't. Nose in 45 right and 45 left can be intimidating.

My weak area was piro-ing slowly cc wise and/or slowly turning to the left in a turn. I couldn't always spot what the heli would do next and I would over compensate on the right stick while giving full left on the rudder to get the heli around quickly. This was to compensate for the natural leaning attitude of the heli in hover.

When ever I run into a troubling area of life I ask wtf is going on and why is this "thing" so worrying? Well, with a little backing off of my right stick inputs I managed to smoothly piro cc without over-reacting. I left my right stick nearly motionless until the heli followed through while giving only a tiny bit of right aileron to keep it in one place. I'm piro-ing very slowly.

I have all of maybe 20 ft or less to negotiate turns at any given time wile flying my backyard course, and I don't want a heli entering neighborly airspace so I have to be careful. My short course is like a clover leaf with a large stem to one side, with fencing, shrubs, trees, and planters in the centers of the leafs and on the outsides. My heli has gotten even as close as six inches to some of these but I'm still flying without fear, why? It's amazing, and recently with some gusting wind.

I've practiced hovering both in the sim and for real switching from left to right nose in 45 degree or less, slowly, then rapidly, then every second. I also flew out and came in with the same angles of attack in the sim. Seems to have helped a lot. Not every hover or small course flight begins like I was flying all my life.

It appears the small things can affect performance and confidence on a larger scope of flying ability. My anecdote may be mundane to the full out 3d crowd but to 3d very well a person has to ingrain every orientation until it's second nature, both for flying , and in the event of a failure of any kind. Ya gotta be "QUICK WITTED" and know your fingers will do the right thing.

Anyway, I'm certain the big guys and pros have a few stories. What did you find difficult, have to spend extra time learning, and what do you think you can teach us from your experience?

AND, DOES IT HELP TO TALK ABOUT IT?

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10-09-2013 03:05 AM  4 years agoPost 2
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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For existing weak sides, I just do the maneuver over and from the offending direction to sure it up. For new stuff, I'll do it from both typical directions and quickly see which way feels more uncomfortable. Then I'll learn it well from that hard side first and the transition to the '"easier"'direction.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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10-09-2013 03:09 AM  4 years agoPost 3
RappyTappy

rrProfessor

Traveling the USA

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Get a larger place to fly with no obstructions to worry about, get a little higher and burn fuel or electrons, practice makes perfect

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10-09-2013 03:23 AM  4 years agoPost 4
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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learn the more difficult side first, good advice.

small place to fly, not so much but more invigorating knowing at any moment it's going to take a dirt knap. makes it more critical to correct and quickly.

There's a vid on youtube of some Philipine kid doing crazy 3d in a space similar in size to the one I have, maybe 45'x45', I saw a year ago not that I expect to try that. There's a lot of close quarters type 3 flying going on out there. That's one thing to fear, limited space, how about around trees with trunks as far apart as only 20 ft and branches beginning maybe 8 ft up or less, and fly them like a pylon circuit. That'd be crazy but I know just the place(s). Under, over, and around, nuts.

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10-09-2013 04:40 AM  4 years agoPost 5
spiderco

rrVeteran

Henderson, Nevada

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When I first started to really practice auto rotations, I had the hardest time coming in from the left. I sucked so bad at it that I avoided it at at all cost which was not good. Slowly I worked on approaching from the left over and over until it became second nature. My suggestion would be to NOT avoid a weak orientation and instead embrace it.

fly til its dry

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10-09-2013 06:48 AM  4 years agoPost 6
shinysideUP

rrApprentice

USA NJ, NY

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Did you ever Have A Weak Spot And How Did You Overcome It?
I dumped the BIT$CH, no more nagging from her about me and my helis any more. That's how I over came all of that weak spot!

Fly hard, fly low, fly till she leaves and never comes back.

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10-09-2013 07:04 AM  4 years agoPost 7
RogerRabbit62

rrVeteran

Thuerigen germany

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For existing weak sides, I just do the maneuver over and from the offending direction to sure it up. For new stuff, I'll do it from both typical directions and quickly see which way feels more uncomfortable. Then I'll learn it well from that hard side first and the transition to the '"easier"'direction.
Ben Minor
Team Thunder Tiger Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
Esprit Models Progressive RC
+1 on doing both sides gives a lot of confidence.

For me breaking things up into easier steps an consolidating them first helps me.
Structured training also.

I did not do competitin or even flying after stopping in 2001/2 arround and after restarting i decided to do it structured with a low pace to have more fun before doing F3C as goal. Because i had learned a weird stickmode in the old times i relearned from scratch

The things which got me over the "nasty" little orientation flaws have been

Precision clock type hovering (you go to a midpoint and back without turning the heli, fly sideways while turning 45 degrees to the next ,6:00 to 4:30, then to the middle and backwards till around the clock, then cw the same round) for all 4 (nose in, tail in, left side in, right side in)
Piro hovering around the above clock sample

Same inverted (still working on)

The 4 leafed clover exercise

You fly a figure like a 4 leafed clover and alternate at the crossover point between FORWARD, BACKWARD, INVERTED FORWARD, INVERTED BACKWARD

Working on th sideways clover at the moment.

The other excercise which gives you a lot of control is the synchronized piro halfflips (the smack move)
You can train it 4 ways (disk flipping forward/backward X rudder CW/CCW)
If you are training then to steer the heli slowly along a linear path and then a CW/CCW circle while doing that the most of the steering flaws are out of the brain.

Your "the heli is falling!!" feeling is away then. The heli is only allways doing one of the piros or pathes of the ones you trained and your thumbs easily know how to finish the figure and get the heli to the point you want it.

Another thing which is highly training your muscle memory is flying in confined space with micros.
The reaction time for your brain is minimal so it has to do sharp, right positioned stick inputs.
Try flying the micro under a table around the legs.
Make a nose in hover around a tableleg, e.g.

Have fun!

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10-09-2013 10:32 AM  4 years agoPost 8
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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Your "the heli is falling!!" feeling is away then.
I always end up on the ground in the sim and ask, why does it always go for the ground when I'm giving cyclic? that's in the sim after messing around with anything out of my league in the real world.

It would not be too far off to suggest that a person could get "STUCK IN A RUT" if they don't break certain fears and or bad habits. It's the same in real life just living.

Every tip is worth considering and like an athlete, lots of out of arena training involves some form of preparation to weed out bad habits and or fears and break or overcome weaknesses.

I had a close up 3d moment some days ago. One fear I personally have had is seeing the top of the rotor disc face me close up. 30 or so feet can disappear quickly. Twice now it has not been a problem though but did cause me to be a tiny bit nervous after the fact. The roots of 3d are forming, lol.
I dumped the BIT$CH
hehe, You have to bring her flowers more often.

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10-09-2013 11:03 AM  4 years agoPost 9
Retired2011

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Lee's Summit, MO

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Practice, practice, practice!

I have a lot of weak spots that I haven't overcome yet

Chet

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10-09-2013 11:34 AM  4 years agoPost 10
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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My line of sight flying has always been lousy ever since I've started. tail and nose-in hovering was my only strong suit and that was really about it. I could kind of do forward flight and I got pretty good at autorotations. Though, bizarrely, I can only do autos nose-in all the way to the ground. Also, I really can't see a helicopter that great once it leaves my general vicinity. Even up in the pattern I start having to memorize the orientation so I don't goof it up.

My solution has been finally to go for broke and simply go FPV. FPV video technology is just now coming out of the Bronze Age, so it's finally becoming a viable, affordable option for r/c. I now fly FPV exclusively on all my aircraft. Seriously, this way, like with full-scale, I only need to learn one skill set and it applies the same everywhere. And I'm not staring at a tiny dot in the sky trying to figure out how to get it back into view lol.

At this point, after several weeks of practice, I can hover "inside" my Whiplash E about where I was able to do it line of sight. Approaches are easier and takeoffs are still slightly harder. Crosswind approaches and hovering is much easier. But no more worries about losing sight of anything once I go into FF.... Autos, who knows when/how I'm going to figure that out, but it may be doable FPV. Maybe I'll repair my trex 700E when it gets to that point and try it with that lol.

So my hat is off to pilots who can fly upside down and do all the fantastic maneuvering/3D line-of-sight. After years and years, I just never got much past flying around the pattern and a roll here and there. FPV is how I'm solving that problem. It's a different kind of fun, but it's already making the experience a good deal better for me.

LS

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10-09-2013 11:47 AM  4 years agoPost 11
shawmcky

rrElite Veteran

Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Been practicing slow precision moves with a 450,slow left and right piro,s are also a weak point for me.An upgrade in glasses would be a big help,how i miss 20/20 unaided vision.My palms get sweaty and heart hammers like a machine gun at times,never on the sim though I feel if i can get it down with a little bird,the bigger ones should be easier,that is the theory anyway.

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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10-09-2013 06:12 PM  4 years agoPost 12
RogerRabbit62

rrVeteran

Thuerigen germany

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I always end up on the ground in the sim and ask, why does it always go for the ground when I'm giving cyclic? that's in the sim after messing around with anything out of my league in the real world.
First thing on your agenda might be to consolidate.

A heli, especially a fbl one can never fall or crash as long as it is mechanical/electronical ok (and there are no trees in the flightpath)

it is a gyroscope, either by the Flybar or by the FBL unit.

So in all crashes you steer the heli to the ground. It is not the heli unable to fly (like a plane stalling) but your wrong control inputs.

If you remember that, it will give you great confidence.

For the beginning fly patterns with flat rotor disc.
Do the figure 8 and the backward and sideways flying in very very slow speed.
Use minimal cyclic input and use 40% d/r and 25% Expo in the beginning.
NEVER HOLD CYCLIC in any direction, just use short IMPULS type commands on cyclic especially on a FBL one.

that way you have all the time you need. You can steer 3 - 4 wrong impulses on the cyclic without the heli "dropping".
and if you need more then 4 corrections to find your orientation on two functions you should go to the sim or what i woud prefer - put a trainercross under the heli and work through the clock hover routine until you have tracked down ALL orientations and movements.

t is a longer way then you might see because beside the orientation there are 4 primary movements for each orientation, e.g. A heli facing right can go forward, backward, sideways left and sideways right.
if you add the 45 degrees you have 8 orientations X 8 movements normal + 8 orientations X 8 movements inverted.

Your brain and muscle memory needs to know and handle each of them subconcious before the real fun of flying starts.

the heli is facing towards left and is right from you and drops over the right side and tail towards earth - you know the steering instinctive? no?
in the training with the trainercross you just hit Throttlehold and the bird will take care of the situation.

otherwise - there is nothing dropping :: the heli is just in the beginning of a backward flown curve to the left and needs rudder / push on ail to lower the speed and "buy" height against speed

those things are subconcious and have to be 200% trained in. if you fly subconcious ( and latest on pirocircuits/loops/ e.g) you have no time for thinking,
you tell your brain what you want and where to place it and the thumbs/muscle memory have to do the rest.

the nice thing about the clock hover exercise is, that you will see every steering flaw as a ofset of several feet IRL.
And while you concentrate on precision you cant really damage the chopper while keeping the disc flat and a trainer cross underside.

Have Fun!

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10-09-2013 06:21 PM  4 years agoPost 13
es1co2bar3

rrKey Veteran

winnetka california

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Flying inverted to the clockwise is good, but doing it counterclockwise
Gees! close to the ground too,
when I get on the sim I just forget about the thing that done on the easy angle and just work on the hard angle.

I was waiting on some honey but there aren't no Queen bee,

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10-09-2013 06:38 PM  4 years agoPost 14
NQNA

rrElite Veteran

USA

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My weakness is that I keeping buying these crazy helicopters..

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10-10-2013 11:27 AM  4 years agoPost 15
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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all great advice, too much to quote right now.

FIGURES, that's what will imprint in the brain any of the positions the heli will be in when combined with piros and as RogerRabbit says, 45 degrees in any direction. The mastery comes when by accident the heli is in an unfamiliar orientation but you guide it out and back to one you are comfortable with. You are connecting the dots as it were trained to your brain points in a figure. It's up to you how you fill in the blanks.

Got my 300(ZYX_S) rigged up and in the air, so light and responsive it'll be easy to 3d and without the worries of a heavier larger machine. A good metal gear hs digital servo on the the tail and it's good to go. 3d here I come, hehe.

You know what? it does help to talk about it.

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10-10-2013 12:50 PM  4 years agoPost 16
RGorham

rrLegend

Livermore, CA - USA

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For existing weak sides, I just do the maneuver over and from the offending direction to sure it up. For new stuff, I'll do it from both typical directions and quickly see which way feels more uncomfortable. Then I'll learn it well from that hard side first and the transition to the '"easier"'direction.
Ben Minor
That's exactly what I do.

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10-10-2013 02:00 PM  4 years agoPost 17
wrongler

rrProfessor

Brewerton, New York

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If I have a weak spot I will practice it on my sim, until I feel confident enough to try with the real heli! My biggest problem is I can't seem to get real smooth!

Bill Whittaker

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10-10-2013 03:02 PM  4 years agoPost 18
es1co2bar3

rrKey Veteran

winnetka california

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For existing weak sides, I just do the maneuver over and from the offending direction
true true]

I get bored to see pilot fly an hurricane only going clockwise, all of them do it, its like you can predict what next.
hurricane to the right is challenging,
thank G@D for weak spot or the hobby will be no fun if we don't have
something try and master.

I was waiting on some honey but there aren't no Queen bee,

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10-11-2013 12:01 AM  4 years agoPost 19
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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I get bored to see pilot fly an hurricane only going clockwise, all of them do it, its like you can predict what next.
odd I like going ccw more than cw. Morphing from right side up to inverted in both figure eight directions forward and backward can be a real mind bender, then throw a half piro in them.

did I mention my cloverleaf backyard course was a 4 leaf?

If it wasn't hard it wouldn't be a challenge, quite right.

Have you ever noticed that the heli will almost hang in the air when on an angle with the disc over 45 degrees and no collective is added? That's what happens in 3d, it floats through a lot of the action without much collective pitch whatsoever. It's noticeable when the heli is in ff and riding on the disc like a wing as opposed to a hover loading with no lift from flight.
My biggest problem is I can't seem to get real smooth!
Same here, but I slowed down the move but not the sim speed and the heli hangs fine. Make your little adjustments and repeat until satisfied. Then speed it up.

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10-11-2013 01:41 AM  4 years agoPost 20
es1co2bar3

rrKey Veteran

winnetka california

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did I mention my cloverleaf backyard course was a 4 leaf?
Sound like a death trap
but anyway take us to the party I am interested bra.

I was waiting on some honey but there aren't no Queen bee,

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