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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › This is why Align 700N clutch fails
09-21-2013 03:46 PM  5 years agoPost 61
Four Stroker

rrElite Veteran

Atlanta

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I am all for development. Go for it. If you are successful, you can make aftermarket clutches. Both Kalt and Hirobo tried springs early in the heli development. I think some RC cars have springs. I would suggest that you not announce success based on s/w simulations but take a significant sample of your new design to destruction first.

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09-21-2013 06:20 PM  5 years agoPost 62
red_z06

rrProfessor

Dumont, NJ

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I have no interest in making after market stuff. Whether you follow this and do the mod or not is entirely up to you.

Working and solving how parts fail and running real and sim tensile testing, fatigue testing is something I do on a daily basis.

I also know the limits and capabilities of analysis well enough to not believe it blindly as this is my livelihood not something I dabble in.

What I'm trying to say is that, if my calculations are off at work, I will have to worry about where my next paycheck will come from. So far, it hasn't happened in 29 years in the field.

I do not believe in mixing the hobby with work. So, that is another reason not to develop and market.

www.JustinJee.com

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09-21-2013 06:51 PM  5 years agoPost 63
RappyTappy

rrProfessor

Traveling the USA

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Clutch wings lol never heard that one before, I have heard of clutch shoes though.

Since the dawn of time I have always known that the smaller you can get the gap between the liner and clutch shoes, the better as long as it will let the engine idle with just the slightest of drag.

Nice write up and time invested to inform red z06.

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09-21-2013 06:56 PM  5 years agoPost 64
red_z06

rrProfessor

Dumont, NJ

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LOL

Break shoes, clutch shoes make more sense if they are separtate. But, since the hub and the actuated parts are one and the same, wing seemed to make more sense.

I was going to call them fingers but wings made more sense. LOL

www.JustinJee.com

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09-21-2013 07:02 PM  5 years agoPost 65
hootowl

rrProfessor

Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Benny, thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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09-22-2013 12:44 AM  5 years agoPost 66
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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An additional benefit of making the clutch shoe/wing lighter is less deformation of the bell. Interesting idea here - Thanks Bennie.

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09-25-2013 02:07 PM  5 years agoPost 67
red_z06

rrProfessor

Dumont, NJ

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Nice work Benny.
I'll offer a couple thoughts for you to consider.
1. Increase the length of the pivot. Instead of a simple hole forming the pivot, make that an egg shape. This will reduce the stress concentration. The Lynx clutch employs this feature.
2. Change the hardness. If the material is soft enough to yield, it will close even a large gap. Done right, it will still have enough spring to disengage. I've always suspected the reason Align clutches are so variable in failure rate is due to poor control of the heat treating process. I have annealed Align clutches that never failed...albeit they were a little grabby but nothing you couldn't hold against.
3. The clutch should not be round in the free state, it should be round in the expanded state.
Bob,

3 makes sense although mfg will get harder.

2 may have some issues. If the material yields, that means you are much too close to the tensile limit and just fatigue life under vibration of the engine impulse load will be even shorter.

I believe the best method is to get the stress at 1/2 tensile limit under all conditions so cycle loads do not come into play.

www.JustinJee.com

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09-25-2013 02:09 PM  5 years agoPost 68
red_z06

rrProfessor

Dumont, NJ

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An additional benefit of making the clutch shoe/wing lighter is less deformation of the bell. Interesting idea here - Thanks Bennie.
This is only a guesstimate. In order to confirm, I will have to run much more laborious contact analysis of the clutch and bell assembly. But, thanks.

www.JustinJee.com

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09-25-2013 04:42 PM  5 years agoPost 69
Ladymagic

rrKey Veteran

South Korea

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Still flying my orginal clutches and liners on my 2 600N's and my 700N. I have yet to have any clutch problems; 700 (160+ hard 3D flights) is 4 years old and the two 600s (100+ flights each) are 5 years old. Running close to 2000 rpm in ST2 on all of them. Even had a few hot starts. Clutches and liners still look very solid.

Heard about the issues people were having with the clutch so, I changed out the liners with JR Heavy duty liner on all of them before maiden. Seemed to be an epidemic I was lucky enough to avoid.

Interesting thread none the less.

Mellisa

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09-25-2013 05:00 PM  5 years agoPost 70
red_z06

rrProfessor

Dumont, NJ

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Lucky you.

One 700 was requiring one at about 50-70 flights each time (3 or 4 replaced)

The other one has a cycle of about 150-170 or so (replaced twice).

I'm the stubborn one that went with stock on both.

3rd one was replaced with a Lynx after the initial failure. I do not know how many flights on that but it failed on unexpected location. But, hind sight is that the location of failure makes sense.

I will get to that when I have some time.

www.JustinJee.com

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09-25-2013 07:23 PM  5 years agoPost 71
BladeStrikes

rrElite Veteran

Shelby TWP,Mi

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Ive always put hundreds of flights on my 600/700N's with stock clutch/liner and never had a issue,even with a YS 91SR in my 600N..
I take that back..I had the clutch shoe get weak on my 700N after 400 flights but it was used so the past owner could of put a few hundred on it before I bought the heli..

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09-25-2013 09:02 PM  5 years agoPost 72
Ladymagic

rrKey Veteran

South Korea

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never had a issue,even with a YS 91SR in my 600N..
Wow how much did you have to mod to get that fit? Are you running the stock gear ratio? Sounds like something I want to do with my 600.

Mellisa

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09-25-2013 09:21 PM  5 years agoPost 73
red_z06

rrProfessor

Dumont, NJ

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PM BobOD

He was developing a shoe hone kit for mounting a 90 in 600N.

www.JustinJee.com

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09-25-2013 09:53 PM  5 years agoPost 74
BladeStrikes

rrElite Veteran

Shelby TWP,Mi

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Ladymagic,
Theres nothing to develop as its been around/done for 10 or so years.Few threads on the mod if you search bigblock Trex 600,600N bigblock ect.... .All you need is a older Raptor 60/90 motor mount and 22T pinion from infinity hobby..
Shave about 2 or so mm off each side of the mount so it fits inside the frames and tap holes in the bottom of the mount so the base plate bolts to it..Then dremel the Trex 600N clutch hub so it fits snug over the 90 size engine crank..The crank has to be cut down a little so it doesn't touch the starter shaft.Once you get the hub on the crank with the nut tight,make a mark on the crank threads that need cut off..
Last thing is taping a new hole in the side of the motor mount..One lines up and the other doesn't..Sounds kinda hard but really isn't,really easy once you see what needs done and well worth it.Others went with a bigger toot pinion but I had a 22T on mine and that give a 2150RPM headspeed which is more than enough..

Watch at YouTube

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09-25-2013 10:04 PM  5 years agoPost 75
dragonflya

rrApprentice

Evergreen Aviation RC Club, Flyaway RC Club Oregon

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Ok, confession...
Most of my troubles with 700 clutches come from either an occasional hot start, chicken dance or failed inverted autos. Lol


AMA #909110

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09-26-2013 03:54 AM  5 years agoPost 76
BobOD

rrElite Veteran

New York- USA

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Head speed is key on the 600. If you're running 2150 like is typical using a 55, you'll be hard pressed to max out the power of a 91. Gear it up to 24-2700 RPM...different story.

Also, it'll make a big difference if you aren't good at collective management, or simply hate the idea of collective management!

Benny, I don't make a kit for this. I've helped some build custom setups is all.

Team POP Secret

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09-26-2013 11:37 AM  5 years agoPost 77
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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I agree that if you spool up slower, don't have a hot start or chicken dance, run a high enough HS, have the engine tuned properly and have good collective management the clutch shouldn't get hot enough to fail.

60% of the time, it works every time!

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09-26-2013 03:12 PM  5 years agoPost 78
BladeStrikes

rrElite Veteran

Shelby TWP,Mi

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BobOD
Head speed is key on the 600. If you're running 2150 like is typical using a 55, you'll be hard pressed to max out the power of a 91.
^^This isn't correct^^..

YS 91SR---> 1700RPM MAX engine
170T main gear/22T pinion ---> 7.72 gear ratio

17000/7.72 gives a 2200RPM headspeed which is MAX on the engine..2150RPM puts the engine right in its power band which means it does max out the engines power...

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09-26-2013 03:29 PM  5 years agoPost 79
Ladymagic

rrKey Veteran

South Korea

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Nice flight Blade,

I think that'll be something I do over the winter months for next season. I'll probably go with the 22T and put an extra .91SZp I have sitting around in and see how it goes. I'm not really looking for insane head speed as much as torque punch without the bog I get from my OS 50's. I'm really good at collective management, but sometimes I just wanna slam my collective without worrying about over loading my head. I do alot smack, but I find the habits if picked up from the sim don't carry over well on my 50s as they bog more than I'd like them to. Plus, it's and excuse to tinker.

You guys are awesome! Been kinda bored lately and you just gave me a reason to be excited again.

You think a .105 would work in a 600? Same foot print as a .91. But, I'm not sure about the gearing. What do you guys think?

Mellisa

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09-26-2013 06:11 PM  5 years agoPost 80
raholek

rrVeteran

Zachary, Louisiana

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Engineers.....
I thought I heard a few lurking around..... Glad you at least kept the acronyms in check. If you had broke out RCAF...we would have to sold you. Punishment would be to go out and fly; instead of wrenching.

**Good write up!

www.redstickrc.net ama#: 968515

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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › This is why Align 700N clutch fails
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