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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsAlign 3G › Align 3GX version 4.0 Software -- FIXED by VERSION 5.0
10-26-2013 11:58 PM  4 years agoPost 121
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Hey.

Could explain my observation that the tail got better as head speed increased.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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10-29-2013 05:37 AM  4 years agoPost 122
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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An update.

I took my laptop, cable, and a boat load of helis out to fly yesterday. It was about 50 degrees with a 15-25 mph wind blowing, so most of the plankers were nowhere to be seen.

I flew a couple of flights with my Trex 500 that's been converted to DFC, using the Align DFC head, a 500MX motor, and an S9257 servo on the tail.

After making sure the heli behaved as expected with V3.1 installed, I bit the bullet and installed V4.0. I ran through the entire setup procedure once again, and proceeded to set the Rudder Lock Gain parameter to its minimum setting, 30, using the PC software. I also made sure I was in Large Heli mode, right side up mounting, and that Delay was set to zero.

Using an X9303 transmitter, Gyro Sense menu, and setting of 65 in the menu ( value that works exceptionally well for V3.1 in this heli), I took off and began to hover. What I noticed immediately is that left rudder behaves and feels completely different than right rudder.

Left rudder has a vague feel, as if rudder expo is at a large value of "insensitive" around neutral. It takes quite a bit of movement of left rudder to get the nose to move. When it does, it feels disconnected from reality. Stopping is vague and not very crisp.

Right rudder is a different story. Very small stick movements are responded to immediately, however when the stick is released, the tail bounces excessively, and ends up with close to the original heading.

This behavior is what I have seen with V4.0, especially in my smaller 450 Pro V2 DFC heli.

However, I next began to increase the X9303 Gyro Sense menu gain. Up to 70 from 65, the tail still behaved poorly, but also a bit different. I increased Gyro sense gain from 70 to 75, and noticed yet a different feel, but apparently moving in the correct direction. Increasing the X9303 Gyro Sense gain number to 80 eliminated almost all of the vague left-rudder behavior, and brought some of the right rudder control to the point where it bounced less, but at least seemed to retain the new commanded heading. With the Gyro sense number increased up to 85, almost all of the left rudder vagueness was gone (just a hint of it remained), right rudder behaved more as it would be expected to behave.

In fast forward flight, stall turns with multiple turn piros (left and right), hovering left and right multi-turn piros, the tail behaved (bounced a few times when stopping, but no excessive bounce as previously seen in earlier attempts). Tail slides didn't blow out, nor did the tail blow out when performing a backwards roll just after coming out of a tail slide.

Overall, this is encouraging. At least my 500 is flyable with V4.0 installed. It still has a small amount of weirdness in how the tail feels -- especially at hover, upright or inverted, and doesn't stop near as crisp as V3.1, but much better than previous outings. I guess I could have continued to increase the X9303 Gyro Sense menu gain number. What I could NOT see at this higher than expected gain was any excessive gain-induced tail oscillation in FFF.

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Having to turn Lock gain to minimum, while running what seems to be excessive gyro gain to achieve a reasonable behavior is an indication that somewhere in the software, gains and control laws are screwed up. Perhaps intentionally tweaked for very high head and tail rotor speeds, but not an optimum choice of programming by any means.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-29-2013 05:43 AM  4 years agoPost 123
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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I'd guess if you were not getting any oscillation in the high speed down wind turns with that much wind then you probably still had room left to add gain. Interesting results. I may try that too once I get my 500 flying again. just put it all together and discovered that I have the wrong front transmission gears (ordered the 31T gear instead of the 36T gear required for the 500 Pro frame - nice gotcha)

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10-29-2013 05:52 AM  4 years agoPost 124
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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probably still had room left to add gain
It worries me when I am approaching a number such as 85 in the gain menu and still not seeing the tail go into oscillation.

Makes me start wondering about one of two things:

1. Servo arm on servo needs to move outward (hasn't been a problem to date, either with a standard tail rotor gyro, or FBL controller gyro previous to V4.0).

2. Gyro isn't responding to gain numbers as has been seen to date. Perhaps indicative of something odd going on in the software.

Having one parameter set at its lower limit, with a second related parameter at or near its upper limit says software has something fishy going on.

-----

OH -- ALMOST FORGOT TO MENTION -- While plugged into the laptop and going through various menus, or just sitting there, powered up and plugged in, there are periodic twitches of all flight controls, including the throttle. It's pretty scary, having the thing powered, sitting, programming features and all of a sudden have the ESC come to life for a split second, letting the motor spin briefly. Definitely not a good idea.

This is a NEW artifact present in the V4.0 software.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-29-2013 10:28 PM  4 years agoPost 125
AWittleWabbit

rrElite Veteran

O.C., CA

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I wonder if they have some feed forward (different value each way) preset in the control loop. Maybe too much in the anti torque direction and too little torque reaction direction?

Dave, are you able to run more Headspeed to check your theory?

Heli-itis sufferer.

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10-29-2013 11:45 PM  4 years agoPost 126
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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In my 500, at least, I am currently running a 95% throttle setting, so I suppose I could up that to 100%. It's been awhile since I counted teeth on my pinion. I could do the math tonight quickly to see what head speed I think I should have now, and what I might expect with a slight bump up in throttle. I don't believe that last 5% will give me much of a boost.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-30-2013 09:06 AM  4 years agoPost 127
Climax

rrVeteran

West London, United Kingdom

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People I know that have encountered the issue have found that adding back in a appropriate rate mode offset to the tail has helped with this aspect of the behaviour i.e. a setup with sufficient tail pitch to stop the tail pirouetting in rate mode.

I wonder if the control loop has changed and now relies of a larger proportional component in the heading hold algorithm. I described this idea in an earlier post. This could account for the asymmetry that some are finding...

It's just an idea, only Align or the third party that designed the 3GX will know the answer.

Electronics, Physics, Helicopters, Fixing Things...

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10-30-2013 01:00 PM  4 years agoPost 128
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Would be nice if they would just fix it.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-30-2013 01:37 PM  4 years agoPost 129
Climax

rrVeteran

West London, United Kingdom

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Indeed!

Electronics, Physics, Helicopters, Fixing Things...

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11-01-2013 12:47 AM  4 years agoPost 130
TREXSYNDROME

rrVeteran

Lakeland, Florida-USA

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Finally got my 450 flying decent...just upgraded to 4.0 . I was worried it would be worse because of the previous posts but thought I had nothing to lose since my heli was flying terribly. (Tail problems). My 3gx unit is mounted inverted and I set the system to accomodate in the setup. Apparently the unit is incorr3ct because on a whim I switched it to normal mounting position and problem is fixed. I am pleased to say it finally flies pretty good.

Mark
Trex 700 n
Gaui X5
Vbar 5.3 pro

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11-01-2013 05:08 AM  4 years agoPost 131
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Due to getting my half of a belated Tax refund, there just might be a 450L Dominator in my near future to check all this out.

Or I wait a bit and team it up with part of a Company bonus in early December and pick up a Logo or other nice toy. Decisions, decisions.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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11-01-2013 10:08 AM  4 years agoPost 132
wrongler

rrProfessor

Brewerton, New York

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Go with the Logo! The 450L is fun, but the Logo is perfect!

Bill Whittaker

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11-01-2013 06:18 PM  4 years agoPost 133
AWittleWabbit

rrElite Veteran

O.C., CA

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You know
you want both!

Heli-itis sufferer.

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11-19-2013 03:17 AM  4 years agoPost 134
whendoigetgood?

rrNovice

U.S.A.

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Ready to buy 3gx. What version do I choose?
I found a very interesting post on another site. This fellow talked about changing the setting from large to small helicopter. Yes I know this has been mentioned many times. His suggestion differed greatly though.

He mentioned that the amount of stick movement you use to change the setting will change it in more than just 2 increments. I.E. You don't just move left for one setting and right for the other, but you move either in small amounts left and right or left more than once, right more than once. I'm not sure which. He also quoted and I will paraphrase, "When stopping after piros if the tail hunts or wags, a slow servo might be the cause. Change the "delay" to the lowest possible setting".

I would take this as meaning that there is indeed more than two increments for the tail delay setting. So, now I'm seeing two different names for this setting. One being "large and small heli" setting, and the other being "Delay" setting.

Hey! It's worth a try isn't it. Another post on this site mentioned setting the tail gyro gain from 50 to 55 in the 3gx menu AND in your TX. According to this gent this fixed his problem.

Why is this taking so long?

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11-19-2013 04:37 AM  4 years agoPost 135
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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Ready to buy 3gx. What version do I choose?
You can upgrade the software on any of them up to V4.0 - although personally I have stuck with V3.1 software due to what Dave has described with his testing. I'm happy with V3.1 software on all my 3GX's

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11-19-2013 05:17 AM  4 years agoPost 136
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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You can load any available version of software at any time. Upgrading to the latest, or reverting to a previous version is simple, easy, and quick.

Setup is quick, easy, and simple.

Yes, I know all about large/small heli selection, and the DELAY function (which defaults to "30" ). Setting it to zero is not as simple as it would seem -- I believe there is a bug in the software -- but by using the PC program display and understanding how to get it to stay at "0", even that becomes quick and easy.

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DELAY has always been a Heading Hold function dedicated to tuning tail rotor response for slow, analog servos. The servos that I'm using, S9257, S9254, DS620, DS525, are not slow, analog servos.

The DELAY setting is usually adjusted by performing left/right piros at hover, then releasing the rudder stick and watching what the tail does when stopping. You simply adjust the DELAY number until you get the heli to stop cleanly without overshoot, undershoot, or bouncing.

-----

Depending upon where you buy your 3GX unit, it may come with any one of a number of software versions installed. If the box doesn't tell you, install the PC software, hook up the unit to your PC, and it will tell you.

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The gains you talk about, one is set via the PC software, called Tail Lock Gain. The other is your standard gyro gain that is set from your gyro control menu in your transmitter. The have different purposes.

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As this is your first one, I would strongly recommend that you update it to version V3.1 (revert it from 4.0 if it comes that way), get used to setting it up, and then getting your heli to fly as you like. Once you have that under your belt, if you feel a bit

-----

I'm still waiting for V4.X to roll out. Perhaps I need to ping Dino and see what, if any, info he might have on that front. As the weather here is turning into less and less heli flying weather, I'm not quite as anxious as I was a month or two ago. But I'm still hopeful for a newer release to address the weird tail gyro behavior.

-----

I was seriously considering the purchase of a Dominator 450L, but at this point, I seem to be amassing stuff to put together a Logo 550SX as a winter project. It will have a 3GX unit installed.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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11-19-2013 10:46 AM  4 years agoPost 137
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Hey.

Team pilots are testing V4.1 at present, I got hold of it for the weekend but due to feel ill, have not been out with it to test.

Duncan Osbourn has compiled a list of findings that have/are going back to Align.
If I have time before it's released publicly, I'm hoping to add in my findings as well once I have had a couple of hours to try it out and hopefully make it any better if it needs it.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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11-19-2013 12:50 PM  4 years agoPost 138
wrongler

rrProfessor

Brewerton, New York

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I have 3.1 on my 450L and like it a lot. I don't really know if I would upgrade to the 4.0!

Bill Whittaker

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11-19-2013 01:19 PM  4 years agoPost 139
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Coolice - that is good news. Keeping my fingers crossed over here that it resolves the tail issue.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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11-19-2013 08:07 PM  4 years agoPost 140
Dog57

rrNovice

Wales

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Yeah Coolice, that is good news, hopefully this will resolve the issues, I went back to V3.1 on the weekend as I changed to a Dx8 and wanted to strip my rx out and run sats, I took the opportunity to scrutinise my set up, and get it perfect before the release of any new firmware, now my heli feels great,

here's hoping they get the best firmware version yet,

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