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HomeRC & PowerAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsAlign 3G › Align 3GX version 4.0 Software -- FIXED by VERSION 5.0
10-22-2013 05:46 PM  4 years agoPost 101
JuanRodriguez

rrProfessor

The Villages, Florida

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

If you've been following this thread at all, you'll know that he already has gone back to 3.1 more than once with no reported tail issues....

Been there, done that and old enough to know better.....

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10-22-2013 06:54 PM  4 years agoPost 102
dbirds2

rrNovice

issaquah, wa usa

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Dude lighten up. You dont have to be a ass about it. Just trying to help the guy.Its no wonder my fellow rc pilots laughed at me for joining this site.

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10-22-2013 07:02 PM  4 years agoPost 103
Dog57

rrNovice

Wales

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LoL why is everyone so uptight in this thread, have to agree with dbirds2 on this one,

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10-22-2013 07:03 PM  4 years agoPost 104
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Dude lighten up. You dont have to be a ass about it. Just trying to help the guy.Its no wonder my fellow rc pilots laughed at me for joining this site.
You may want to read the thread to get up to speed before you decide to jump in. There has been a lot of work done prior to your arrival. If your fellow pilots laughed at this site that's their problem not ours. RR has very capable members here.

Delayed Response Operator Not Engaged
AMA SECTION 336 = Good
Drones = EVIL

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10-22-2013 07:33 PM  4 years agoPost 105
marked23

rrKey Veteran

Lynnwood, WA

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Actually, this thread has been good about staying on topic and being informative. I'm very interested in this topic and I want to see how it turns out.

As online threads go, this is a pretty good one.

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10-23-2013 03:23 AM  4 years agoPost 106
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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You could try going back to 3.1 version to see if it fixes issues.
Been there, done that. Multiple times. V3.1 solves ALL odd behavior issues.
Maybe your hardware is faulty.
Eight helicopters, eight 3GX units: two 250s, a DFC 500, a 550, 600N, 700N, 450 DFC and a Gaui NX4. None too happy with V4.0. Some less happy than others.

Oh, actually replaced the first one in the 450 DFC when I first saw the problem. So that would make nine 3GX units bad, or eight helis. V3.1 works like a dream. V4.0, not so good.
Then sit back and await a firmware release from Align.
That is the current plan. I got a good enough glimpse of what V4.0 could be, so eagerly waiting.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-23-2013 04:21 AM  4 years agoPost 107
AWittleWabbit

rrElite Veteran

O.C., CA

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Dave, you are the most patient person on RR. Between the "These aren't the droids you're looking for." and "You're holding it wrong." comments, I would have lost my composure.

My hats off to you for sharing your experiences with the 3gx. At some point I'll have another one to experiment with. I'd buy every fbl controller if I could, just to mess with.

Heli-itis sufferer.

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10-24-2013 02:59 AM  4 years agoPost 108
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Wabbit --

This is one of the reasons I am so patient:

Eight of those boxes are currently empty, happily installed on various helis in my fleet. And all are quite well-behaved with V3.1. None are well-behaved with V4.0, even after carefully trying all the posted "fixes" available here and on HF. (Not to mention my test results here, as well).

The remaining four boxes are quietly waiting for their turn at a helicopter.

-----

Those who have been RR members for some time would come to realize that I rarely, if ever, start topics such as this one unless I have good reason to do so. I'm usually the last person in the room who would stand up and yell "fire", and would only do so if there really WERE a fire.

But then I also turn around and try to put it out, instead of running away.

-----

I was one of the first to post the availability of V4.0 here and on the Trex forum, mainly due to the fact that V4.0, for the first time, added full DSMx receiver support. I felt people had been waiting a long time for that to happen. I was eager to install it myself. Not for DSMx reasons, but I was looking forward to even better performance.

To that end, I had gone ahead and blindly loaded V4.0 into the eight 3GX systems I currently have installed, looking forward to some refinements. Instead, I experienced tail rotor gyro performance that wasn't nearly as good as one of the early Heli-Max piezo gyros I flew in a Kyosho Nexus many years ago. One heli with odd characteristics I could understand. But not all eight.

I've been offering tail rotor and gyro setup help here for many years with many "satisfied customers". I'm also one of the few willing to help others get their 3GX systems running, instead of coming up with the very tired and old response "Buy a V-bar".

Along comes V4.0 and voila, my helis fly like crap, and I'm told I have no idea what I'm doing. I can readily demonstrate a night and day difference between V4.0 and V3.1.

-----

As for those to whom you refer, it is quite obvious they haven't invested the time or energy required to actually start at the beginning of this thread and understand the various posts. Many people rarely stop long enough to look at a thread before typing away. You really can't yell at people like that.

-----

Prior to starting this thread, I sent PMs to Align USA and to Dino Spadaccini, telling them of what I had seen. I then started this thread in hopes of keeping the community aware of what was going on, and perhaps someday, to be able to report an available resolution. I am still optimistic that one is forthcoming.

I have followed up with several PMs back and forth with Dino, who seems to be very honest and up-front about this problem. I've shared the content of several of those exchanges with a few other RR members in this thread to to demonstrate that I'm not blowing smoke about the 3GX V4.0 tail rotor performance.

I intend to see this problem through to a good, workable, resolution. In the meantime, I'm happily flying V3.1 as Dino has suggested.

My biggest problem to date, is that here in Iowa, it snowed yesterday. And this evening it is currently 36 degrees and a light mist is falling. The flying season here in Iowa is slowly shutting down. When a fix is posted, I certainly hope to be able to install it, set it up, and check it out, even if the weather sucks.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-24-2013 02:43 PM  4 years agoPost 109
dbirds2

rrNovice

issaquah, wa usa

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I honestly have to say that my 4.0 is a pleasure to fly. I have always used other fbl systems and due to financial issues, i decided to go ahead and try the 3gx in my 450 dominator kit and i love it so much i may convert my other helis to the 3gx. Funnels, piro flips, tic tocs etc have never felt so locked in and stable until i tried the 3gx 4.0. Im very happy with it.

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10-24-2013 04:06 PM  4 years agoPost 110
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Hey All.

Ok, let's get this topic back onto useful information rather than "Jedi Mind Tricks" and "It must be bad because I read it was!" sort of replies.

Just been out with the 450L to test some of the theory's being mentioned on various forums to fix the possible tail problem.

Initially I set my rudder delay to small heli and zero delay, then popped up into the hover for the quick stab yaw command inputs.
Quick left yaw stabs saw a slight over-shoot and right the easily spotted b ounce back, I think it was less compared to the 30 delay value I had before but could be better still.

Looking at the behaviour of the tail it did look like the tail needed some form of offset to keep the tail in check, it looked to me as if it was the torque reaction on the model effecting the stops. In this case as I had set the tail to give zero pitch at centre stick in rate mode, it felt like as the rudder input was released the tail servo moved the blades to zero pitch and then realised it had to add in pitch to stop the torque reaction.

Next battery/test, I adjusted the tail pushrod to give me enough tail trim to hold the tail in rate mode. I had limited tools so just wound in the tail links 3 complete turns and flicking into rate mode showed the tail was in trim while in the hover, so that was lucky.
Now I moved on to the quick stab tail tests again.

Left yaw saw a much cleaner stop, a little bounce was evident as the tail tried to stop the yaw rotation very abruptly, but otherwise a clean stop.
Right yaw was much improved, being honest there was a hint of bounce back, but nothing like I was seeing with the old zero pitch in rate mode tail setup.
Further testing flicking the tail both left & right showed that the stopping power of the tail is very good, if a little too good in that the tail bounced on the stops.
Now my next thing to try is lowering the lock gain a little more from the 50 I have it set to and seeing what effect that has on this behaviour.
In an ideal world it's probably a stop gain issue now, which is something we cannot adjust ourselves. If this parameter is in the 3GX firmware for the Align people, maybe try lowering this before we go looking too deep into coding problems.

Overall though the model feels good, it is no Vbar so it's pointless saying it is, but it's certainly not that bad either and has a good grip of the model in all attitudes.
You really have to push hard with aggressive collective and cyclic manouvers to get the feeling that the model isn't quite so well held when on a knife edge.
But otherwise the tail holds great, I did have to raise my tail gain slightly to feel happier with it, but once this was done it was great.

In light of these tests, I would recommend the below as a starting point to get optimum performance out of the tail when using V4;

1. Small heli delay, with zero delay set. Flick the tail control to small heli (red led) and let the 3GX time out for it to register the setting. If you hit the 3GX's rubber button to move on the 3GX does not store the new delay value.

2. Hover in rate mode and adjust tail pushrod length to trim the tail while in rate mode.

3. Lower lock gain to 50, maybe less, will update once I have tried less on my own machine.

Please chime in if you have a larger machine and come up with settings that work well for them.

For the future of the 3GX I'd like to see a facility to enable a beginner and PRO mode within the 3GX PC software. I'm thinking this would then give the expert flier the ability to fine tune more parameters as he or she required and the beginner would have a simpler setup as we have now, so as to get flying with minimal fuss.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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10-24-2013 07:04 PM  4 years agoPost 111
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

There is something about "been there, done that and it still doesn't work well" message that seems not to be getting out. I've gone through all the suggestions, all the recommendations, on different days, different times, the answer still comes out the same.

BTW, switching to Large Heli mode doesn't make a difference, either. Being mounted inverted or upright seems to be out of the things to try, as well.

Ian is talking about curing "bounce". I see the bounce, I see way big overshoot on the bounce. The recommended fixes just don't do the job.

There is a second phenomenom that has been seen by me and others, and that is for left rudder command, the heli feels as if the expo on the rudder has been cranked way down into the insensitive world. Lots of left rudder is required to achieve a heading change. When it happens, it is a step-function in heading change, as if the gyro forgot what it is doing and suddenly woke up. The return to center in this case also feels wishy-washy, and the stop is kind of vague. But the heli maintains the new heading as it should.

For right rudder, it's as if the expo was turned up to the super sensitive side of things, the nose moves very quickly with small stick input, stops on a dime (well, a small bounce or two), but when you let go of the stick, the heli doesn't maintain the new heading, it very quickly snaps back to the previous heading.

-----

One interesting observation, however, seems to be that those who are seemingly reporting success, all seem to be flying the new 450L Dominator. There is a smattering of other helis, but for the most part, the 450L seems to like V4.0. Is it coincidence that V4.0 was released at the same time the 450L made its debut. Did the Align folk somehow inadvertently tune the V4.0 behavior to match the much higher head speeds and tail rotor speeds involved, and in the process, did they break the software for other installations? Obviously this isn't a scientific poll, is based on anecdotal evidence, but may be something to consider.

-----

Jedi Mind tricks don't work. I don't use them. Maybe a Vulcan Mind Meld, but no Jedis involved, injured, or otherwise mistreated here.

Discounting the findings from my experiments by waving your hands and calling them funny names doesn't change my findings, it generally demonstrates that one has nothing new to add. If you can't discount the facts, attack the messenger.

I don't understand how me relating findings of my experiments is Jedi Mind tricks, when Ian's are to be considered absolute fixes. I'm making the same adjustments, running the same tests, having different results.

As for a "beginner" vs "Pro" mode for setup, I hope that's a general comment, and not somehow directed to let people think I've not been around the block at least once.

In general, I believe that's a good idea, giving additional capability for fine tuning to those who truly want or need it. Either way that goes, the software actually needs a stable, operational basis that works for everyone as a starting point.

Without a useful, functional starting point, you'll continue to see 3GX units, NIB, for $60 in the classifieds. It might even help vendors who have 3GX sitting on the shelf, selling at retail, who aren't moving inventory as no one wants to mess with it to begin with.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-24-2013 08:43 PM  4 years agoPost 112
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Jedi Mind tricks don't work. I don't use them. Maybe a Vulcan Mind Meld, but no Jedis involved, injured, or otherwise mistreated here.
Discounting the findings from my experiments by waving your hands and calling them funny names doesn't change my findings, it generally demonstrates that one has nothing new to add. If you can't discount the facts, attack the messenger.

I don't understand how me relating findings of my experiments is Jedi Mind tricks, when Ian's are to be considered absolute fixes. I'm making the same adjustments, running the same tests, having different results.
Evening Dave.

My quotes were not aimed at your postings, but a few above made by others that are totally unrelated to this topic, that are doubting and aimed at other members good input to the topic.

I'm not disputing you've seen a problem, or issue that needs to be addressed. Both myself and others have now made contributions to this very topic stating the we are either reducing the effects being seen, or for some eliminating them it appears.

In no way have I discounted your findings, in fact I've literally gone out there today for example to go straight to them and address them if I can.
From what I saw today, I feel I have done so to some degree, as have others and posted the settings we have used to get to where we are in an effort to help others to.

There has been no mention of a full fix, only steps to help the situation. All these have been met by the same reply from yourself "Been there, done that, doesn't work". Clearly some are seeing improvements, so you can see the hesitation in just sitting back because you said it cannot be fixed.

By your own admission in the early stages you yourself did not try all options available to you to remedy the issue, because you felt previous setups should fly the same on V4, thus not fully exploring all options. Your post then on here only said one thing and that was V4 is bad and no one should try it.

I'm not looking to start an argument with yourself on what works and what doesn't, so don't misunderstand my postings. But I do feel some good points have not been taken into consideration from people willing to put their time into experimenting and when people do post, it's all to easy to put them down thinking they are wrong.
You do a great service on here with your help for the 3G/GX users, it's easy for everyone to see and appreciate that. But this topic is going from help to a one line put down.

I have got a lot of experience with the 3GX, so know how to extract it's potential and I like the challenge of making it better.

I'm still not done with my testing and tuning and if I can make the unit fly better I will. Once I have made more changes I will chime back in.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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10-25-2013 02:39 AM  4 years agoPost 113
R/C Speed Nut

rrVeteran

Galesburg, Michigan USA

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For what it's worth, I have three helis with 4.0 (450 pro, 500, and 600 pro) and thankfully none exhibit the symptoms described here.


Mike

Funky Chicken?!!..........I thought this was how you do a piro flip!!

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10-25-2013 10:22 AM  4 years agoPost 114
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Thanks for your input Mike, it's appreciated.
Good to have some feedback on other model sizes.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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10-25-2013 03:44 PM  4 years agoPost 115
jschenck

rrProfessor

La Vista, NE.

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I personally very much appreciate the work and well documented issues Dave has posted here. I have found myself with little time to spend on my hobby and because of Dave's clear and well thought out writeup of the issues he's had I've avoided the V4 software on all my 3GX's. They are flying very well on V3.1. I have been using 3GX is V1.1 and have enjoyed the improvements with every release as soon as Align releases it. I may put V4.0 on one heli as an experiment if I get time but it's low on my hobby list of 'to-do'. Looking forward to V4.1

I also very much appreciate the technical knowledge and carefully thought out approach to looking at the actual problem the Ian is communicating.

To both -- than you. Align owes you both at least a very strong and in my opinion public thank you for doing work that most reasonable people would agree you should be paid for.

You both are working toward the same goal. Don't let the small nuances of mis-communication being done without the benefit of non-verbal queue's lead you to anything less than a continuation of the collaborative effort you've already achieved.

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10-25-2013 06:14 PM  4 years agoPost 116
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Hey Buddy.

Thank you for the compliment, it is greatly appreciated and your post is very well put.

I am in a more fortunate position than Dave perhaps as I do fly for Align indirectly as my principle sponsor, Robbe Schluter UK who I fly for, is the UK importer for Align. As well as Midland Helicopters also.

My competition days have been and gone if you like, I used to fly F3C from the late 80's through to 2006'ish, with a go at F3N in 2010 from memory. From my 31 years in the hobby I bring a lot of experience with me and I am on the team for my technical ability. A couple of young guns on the same team, are now doing well in comps with machines I have setup for them.

Over here we have been asked to give more feedback to Aligns 3GX firmware testing, to compile with other teams around the world, which is something I enjoy.
Recently myself and Duncan Osbourn spent an afternoon testing and tweaking V4 on a 700E DFC a week before it was released. Unfortunately this machine didn't show any tail issues at this point, but was seen to work well so much so I had to wrestle the transmitter of Duncan to feel the changes I'd made with my 2.5D

On the forums I am always keen to help others enjoy the hobby, the way I have and still do to this day, through helping them get their machines flying the best that can be.
I pride myself on being honest in my posts, as there is no point me saying a product is wonderful publicly if it isn't and then being made to look a fool when the truth emerges.

Anyway I'm gassing away, thank you again.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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10-26-2013 04:13 PM  4 years agoPost 117
dbirds2

rrNovice

issaquah, wa usa

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Last night i took my trex 700e v2 and swapped out beastx for 3gx 4.0 and it flew awesome with no tweaking it at all. So the 3gx 4.0 has been awesome on 450l and 700e. I will be staying with 3gx and selling my beastx

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10-26-2013 06:25 PM  4 years agoPost 118
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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I'm not sponsored, work 50-60 hours a week and am usually limited to weekend flying where I have to share the flying site with a dozen or more planks, many whose pilots don't seem to understand common courtesy. In the summer, there may be an extra evening at the flying field, a "heli night", that still doesn't keep the planks away. My helicopters come out of our household budget. For me, stuff has to simply work, or have a fix that can be applied and resolve problems.

I'm not a competition flyer, I'd consider myself someone who flies for sport, enjoyment, and fun, and I always try to get better at what I can do. My history with helicopters begins with the DuBro 505, includes Schluter's helis from the Heliboy up through the Champion, GMP Cobra, a bunch of Kyosho stuff, a Revolution 40, an Xcell or two, a lot of Align helis, and some hobby king cheapos. I've flown with no gyros, mechanical spinning mass gyros, early piezo gyros, modern SMM gyros and now FBL controller based gyros.

The closest I've been to Bobby Watts, the Szabos, Bert Kammerer, etc., is the internet. I fly with a group of people whose skills go from phenomenal to rank beginner.

My background as an engineer has trained me to look for problems, and solutions. As noted earlier, I have loaded V4.0 into many different helicopters, and have not had good results with any. I have spent quite a bit of time with the 450 DFC heli as I can make changes in my basement workroom and go out in front of the house and check the results of the changes. It's a small area with trees, lamp posts, cars, a sidewalk and a street. Not super conducive to much more than hovering and some slower forward/backward flight. I have managed on a couple of occasions to get out to the flying field with few planks in sight, for additional tests, and my laptop was with me.

I have tried the proposed solutions more than once. Lower lock gain, higher lock gain, lower transmitter gain, higher transmitter gain, large heli, small heli, delay to zero, delay up to 30, dialing out yaw in rate mode, and centering the slider at neutral. I've tweaked the two precompensation settings, although these affect other traits of the 3GX, not the particular problems I am experiencing. This IS, after all, a heading hold gyro that isn't working well.

At the end of the tests, I always revert back to V3.1, and once again have a heli that is flyable, and well under control.

My larger helis have also demonstrated similar problems, the solution is always the same.

I am happy others are having success. But there are many who aren't. What the common thread for success or less than stellar performance is, I would love to know.

It's Saturday, we have winds in the 20-30 mph range outside, and it's 46 degrees right now. Maybe I'll load V4.0 yet one more time, go through all the setups again, and once again see if I can make this work.

I do look forward to V4.1 or whatever it will be called.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-26-2013 06:48 PM  4 years agoPost 119
dbirds2

rrNovice

issaquah, wa usa

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Hey dude have you tried bumping up your headspeeds because i run above average headspeed on my 700e and weall know how fast the 450l is. There could be something to the 4.0 being tailored made for high h.s

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10-26-2013 07:57 PM  4 years agoPost 120
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

There could be something to the 4.0 being tailored made for high h.s
I've begun wondering about this, as many of the people who seem to be having success are flying the 450L.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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HomeRC & PowerAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsAlign 3G › Align 3GX version 4.0 Software -- FIXED by VERSION 5.0
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