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HomeRC & PowerAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsAlign 3G › Align 3GX version 4.0 Software -- FIXED by VERSION 5.0
09-16-2013 11:33 PM  5 years agoPost 41
PJRono

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, Ya!

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Glad that doubled up tape fix is still working for you Dave!

If you skip me I can't play!

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09-16-2013 11:57 PM  5 years agoPost 42
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Hey.

Question is, others that are seeing similar tail bounce, are they using out the box settings?

The rate mode setup is offsetting the tail throw, which compensates for the torque reaction on the model. There is more tail throw to go against the torque.
Could it be that a higher lock gain gives more problems depending on how the tails neutral position is set to?

It's known some feel Align gyros benefit from the older way to set the tail rotors neutral position with pitch to hold heading in rate mode and others have success with 0 tail pitch at neutral. I've had good results from the 0 tail pitch setup.
The 700E I was using for testing was already flying when I jumped onto it, so i cannot comment on tail neutral setting. However overall it felt horrible to start with until I started tweaking settings.

My 450L has turned up today and will be flying the 3GX once built.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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09-17-2013 01:21 AM  5 years agoPost 43
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Coolice -- I would try not to get hung up on the rate mode setup as being the solution. If nothing else, it is a workaround. Even the old GY401 was able to behave under less than perfect setup conditions.

V3.1 and prior installments did not exhibit this behavior. V4.0 does.

The idea behind a good non-yaw rate mode setup was to make sure that at hover, the servo would be centered, and therefore have equal travel in both directions, and presumably equal authority.

It's still a good idea, but I don't believe critical.

The servo is going to be where ever it needs to be, in order to maintain heading. Stopping yaw and maintaining heading is independent of where the servo happens to be, and overshoot is a function of the algorithm that is looking at rate, direction, and acceleration. The gyro does not know where the servo happens to be, it only knows it sees movement in a given direction, with rate, acceleration, element of time, and perhaps new heading information coming from the rudder input channel.

Keep in mind that if you build the helicopter per its instructions, most these days will tell you the pitch slider gets centered with the rudder servo at neutral. Further, even the 3GX installation and setup instructions tell you to center the slider for neutral rudder. This hasn't changed.

-----

Here's hoping the fix is forthcoming soon, and that it is effective. If I could, I'd also put in a request to FIX the CYCLIC RING function, it has never worked. It would be quite useful.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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09-17-2013 10:13 AM  5 years agoPost 44
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Morning Dave.

Oh no I'm not buddy, I'm just joining in with the conversation that a tail setup in rate mode, rather than just centering the slider, possibly works better with a given setup.

Personally I still think you have a settings issue with this tail problem and not having tried lowering the lock gain, is not allowing us to answer if this contributes to it or not.

With a centred tail slider, the idea was to as you say allow equal travel left and right to achieve the same level of holding power for the gyro to keep a hold of the tail in fast backwards flight.
It was felt that having more pitch in one direction limited the gyros ability to hold in the opposite direction.

Fortunately this issue has not arisen on any UK forums or another popular one to my knowledge so far, so it's limited to here.
My concern and this is not to be taken personally, but people do follow your thoughts on the 3GX here and if you are not lowering your own lock gain, no one else will and possibly experience the same issues.
This assumes of course that this parameter has a bearing on your finding, but we are not able to find this out as it's not been tried by someone experiencing this problem.

As above my 450L has landed and will be flying V4, I've got a lot of experience of the 3GX all the way back from V1 and so know what parameters effect what on the model. Straight away I always lower the rudder lock gain from past experience and so this maybe why I am yet to see an issue.

As to tail setup, most FBL units ask for a small amount of tail pitch against the torque reaction of the model. The Vbar does and also the Beastx from memory, some models with the slider in the middle of it's travel set the tail blades with some pitch. On Align machines it's usually the tail control arm being parallel with the tail output shaft that does this.

One problem I have seen on two models now is the 3GX's twitching the servos while on the bench. As this pulsed the throttle on one 450L I was told.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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09-17-2013 11:51 PM  5 years agoPost 45
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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I am not opposed to lowering the lock gain. I do have a limited amount of time to try stuff out, my day job really keeps me from doing the things I'd rather be doing.

I will have to reload 4.0 back into my 500, rerun the setup stuff to make sure there's nothing else going on, then wait for the weekend. And hope that when I get there, the flying site isn't overrun by planks.

If I can, I'll then go back up and make sure the problem is still there, then get my laptop up and running, and make the change.

I could recheck the behavior of my 450DFC, however that is out of commission till at least Thursday when the Postman will most likely bring me a package of parts from Ron's Heliproz South. A bit of dumb-thumbing last weekend put it on the injured reserved list. If I get that back together I can install V4.0 once again, run through the setup again, and can look for the odd behavior while hovering in my driveway. What I saw in that heli didn't require lots of room, just hover and move the stick left and right some.

As for
As to tail setup, most FBL units ask for a small amount of tail pitch against the torque reaction of the model. The Vbar does and also the Beastx from memory, some models with the slider in the middle of it's travel set the tail blades with some pitch. On Align machines it's usually the tail control arm being parallel with the tail output shaft that does this.
from the 3GX V4.0 setup GUI:

the instructions are quite clear...center the slider.

-----

Of course there IS a corollary to me lowering my lock gain to see if the problem goes away, and that is you could increase yours to the stock 70 value and see if the problem shows up.

I will do my part as I can, after all it took me over two weeks from loading software to being able to fly it and experience the problem.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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09-18-2013 02:48 AM  5 years agoPost 46
AnthonyGTR

rrNovice

charleston sc

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Go ahead and add another person to the v4.0 curse. Align 500 DFC, DX8 radio, 2 DSM2 satellites, & 3gx v4.0.

I had 2 successful flights with the v4.0. I noticed after pushing it on my 2nd flight, that the tail had a bit of wag when doing tail first and hard turns. We decided to decrease the radio gain from 35% to 30%. The next flight (new lipo) I could tell the tail was not responding correctly and would drift and had a very 'slow' response. It almost felt like the tail was in rate mode. I brought it back down and increased the gain to 34%. I tried a piro and noticed the tail kept going about 30-45 degree's after you let go of the stick. All of a sudden the tail started moving on its own without any input and I pretty much lost all rudder control at that point. It happened very fast so it's hard to really remember exactly what happened. I had to hit throttle cut and even at that point I could not correct the heli quickly enough as it felt like I had no control of the rudder what so ever. I was able to auto rotate but ended up with 2 broken blades and landing gear.

We went back over everything on the heli as we were all dumbfounded as to why a small % change in the gyro would cause this issue. We assumed that there is another issue somewhere in the heli. After reading this thread, it seems like it has to do with v4.0.

Also, we were checking rate mode and when running a DX8 anything below 0 is in rate mode and anything above 0 is heading hold. On my radio, it will switch the 3gx unit into rate mode at 12.5% opposed to 0%. Why is this? Clearly there is an issue here.

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09-19-2013 01:46 AM  5 years agoPost 47
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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I tried a piro and noticed the tail kept going about 30-45 degree's after you let go of the stick.
That sounds familiar, the rest of what happened, doesn't, with perhaps the exception of feeling as if it was in rate mode.
Also, we were checking rate mode and when running a DX8 anything below 0 is in rate mode and anything above 0 is heading hold.
As it should be.
On my radio, it will switch the 3gx unit into rate mode at 12.5% opposed to 0%. Why is this? Clearly there is an issue here.
I don't understand the last two statements...first you checked with a DX8 radio and it switched modes at zero. But your radio, also a DX8, switched modes at 12.5%. Two different radios of the same type, but different results?

If so, I'd look at the two radios and figure out what you have set differently between them.

-----

Just to be sure, what channel are you using (or think you are using) in your DX8 to control gyro gain? Channel 5, or channel 7? It does make a difference.

-----

Also,

were you flying V3.1 successfully prior to all of this, and only encountered this behavior after installing V4.0, or was this just a fresh first ever experience with V4.0?

If you had updated from a previous version to V4.0, did you rerun all of the setup steps prior to flying?

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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09-19-2013 02:08 AM  5 years agoPost 48
Dino Spadaccini

rrElite Veteran

USA

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Try this I only hoverd this and it seem to work
For the tail bounce change in the 3gx from small Heli to large

RIP Roman JR
Capt USA Align Factory Team Align - Conquer Your heart
Team Futaba

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09-19-2013 02:08 AM  5 years agoPost 49
Dino Spadaccini

rrElite Veteran

USA

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For the tail

RIP Roman JR
Capt USA Align Factory Team Align - Conquer Your heart
Team Futaba

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09-19-2013 02:09 AM  5 years agoPost 50
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Will give that a shot this weekend, weather permitting. Should have my 450 back in action later tomorrow evening if the postman delivers parts tomorrow.

Of course, when I first ran into this, I was flying my 500 that's been converted to DFC, and it already WAS in Large heli mode.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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09-19-2013 02:32 AM  5 years agoPost 51
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Anthony --

FYI, I checked the point at which one of my 3GX systems, running V3.1 software for now, switches from HH mode to Rate mode.

I have an external AR6115e receiver connected to the 3GX unit, the Gear channel (channel 5) of the receiver is plugged into the 3GX rudder gain channel. My transmitter is a JR X9303.

When I have my Gear switch set to select HH mode, the LED on the 3GX unit indicates that it switches from heading hold mode to rate mode as I decrease my gear channel endpoint setting, when I reach the value "12" in the setting display. Between 0 and 12, rate mode. Greater than 12, heading hold mode. It seems that what you are seeing is the way it works in this respect.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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09-19-2013 12:29 PM  5 years agoPost 52
Dino Spadaccini

rrElite Veteran

USA

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Just to throw this out there we changed the tail to large heli on the 3gx 4.0 did a hover test and no bounce and no tail rest

we did not do any ff with this setup ran out of day light

just an FYI for you all

Dino

RIP Roman JR
Capt USA Align Factory Team Align - Conquer Your heart
Team Futaba

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09-19-2013 12:57 PM  5 years agoPost 53
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Dino -- I first saw this problem with my 500 which IS already set for LARGE heli mode.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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09-19-2013 10:37 PM  5 years agoPost 54
MAYHEM

rrApprentice

Motorcity

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I had the best luck with a setting of small Heli and a delay setting of zero. I was still getting a small bounce on hard stops with large Heli set.

Marshall

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09-20-2013 04:05 AM  5 years agoPost 55
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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No 450 parts today. Tomorrow, for sure. Have the day off. Think I know what I'll be doing.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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09-20-2013 05:48 PM  5 years agoPost 56
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Dino --

Is Align working to correct this problem, and is there an estimate on when a fix might be available?

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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09-21-2013 03:10 AM  5 years agoPost 57
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Postman relented today, delivered my 450 parts. Heli is back together.

Test flew with V3.1, all seemed well, and the heli behaved.

-----

Loaded V4.0.

Started out LARGE heli mode, rudder lock gain at 50%. Delay set to 0.

Left, right tail control in hover was reasonable for left and right rudder. Slow movements no real surprise. Heli pointed where I wanted it to, and would stay there. Quick movements, some bounce when I let go of the stick, in either direction. Bounce not unreasonable. Nose did end up where I wanted it to be.

-----

Switched to SMALL heli, rudder lock gain at 50%. Delay set to 0.

Left rudder, the tail felt sloppy, small slow movements, or quick movements. It did end up where I wanted it, but just no solid feel. Right rudder for small slow movements, nose moved to new position, but just didn't feel "normal". Would not necessarily stay pointed in new final position when I let go of the stick. Quick movements of right rudder, nose moved to the right, but when I let go of the stick, it would bounce back to original position and stay there. It took some work to make the heli establish and maintain a new heading with right rudder. Tail overall not something I'd like to fly. Loose, not predictable.

Remained in SMALL heli, changed rudder lock gain back to default 70&, delay set to 0. No real difference. Very unpleasant flying heli with a tail that was not predictable.

Overall, in SMALL heli mode, the heli felt as if I had a bad servo, bad gyro mounting tape, or bad bearing in the tail grips.

-----

Switched to LARGE heli mode, gyro lock gain at 70%, delay set to 0. Pretty much the same behavior as LARGE heli, lock gain at 50%, and delay at 0.

Probably flyable in this state, but I'd like to get it out where I can get some air, do a few stall turns with piros, as well as just some left/right piros from a hover to see how the response and stopping behaves.

-----

Rudder lock gain really had no effect on behavior, large or small heli mode. SMALL heli mode not something I'd like to experience on a regular basis. Large mode, maybe.

Weatherman says tomorrow is supposed to be pretty good, there is a high probability of many planks at the flying site tomorrow.

Will continue to check out V4.0, but at this point, SMALL mode seems to have problems.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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09-21-2013 07:04 PM  5 years agoPost 58
Andy from Sandy

rrElite Veteran

Bedfordshire, UK

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Although it will not fix your problem I did see today that with the control rod at 90 to the lever there is a small amount of left rudder.

After doing a grip flip there is now a small amount of right rudder.

Unfortunately the ESC took a dump so there was no test flight to see what the effect was.

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09-21-2013 07:26 PM  5 years agoPost 59
VANHELI

rrVeteran

Omaha,Nebraska

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Ok, only got one flight on it yesterday but mine was MUCH improved! I set the tail up in rate mode for no drift hovering with the tcurve at 75%. I left the delay setting on small heli and gain is at 25%, on my travel adjust menu. (JR). The tail stopped crisp both directions and held fine in some fast backward hurricanes, tic tocs and other basic 3D moves. I am hoping to get out again tomorrow and really put it through its paces and try some different gain settings to experiment. I was at 30% gain before and tried it on big heli and small heli mode and it would not function properly. Still strange that I had to lower the gain when it was not displaying a too high of gain wag.

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09-22-2013 04:40 AM  5 years agoPost 60
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Flew again today, more than one heli and many flights. A 500 DFC, 550, and a 450 DFC.

Version 4.0 tail rotor control just plain sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I reduced the gyro lock gain and fiddled around with gyro gain. Large heli mode, small heli mode. Zero delay, delay up to "30". With gyro lock gain reduced, the tail begins to feel mushy. With piros at the top of stall turns, the tail fails to stop crisply, misses the stopping point, returns to position poorly. Same for piros at a hover. At the other end of the spectrum, it doesn't feel mushy, it just causes the heli to have an annoying wag in forward flight. Stops at the end of piros end up where they should, but only after two to three overshoot bounces. Stops are not crisp, nor clean.
Just sloppy, bouncy stops.

-----

I reverted the 500 DFC, 550, and 450 all back to version 3.1 one at a time. When I did, the wag in fast forward flight was gone, stops from left AND right piros were instant, clean, no bounce, and just plain as they should be.

Other flyers present even commented that when I was flying V3.1, they could hear the tail rotor actually working to bring the tail to a crisp, clean stop. That sound simply isn't present in V4.0. Neither is the performance.

Align really needs to get after this and simply fix the gyro function with a new release.

Edit -- I DO like the improvements that came along with regard to cyclic and collective performance. Fix the tail, I think all will be right with the world.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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