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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Generators... AGAIN.. Simple answer please
08-31-2013 02:26 PM  5 years agoPost 1
theviper

rrApprentice

Gilbert, AZ.

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Ok, I have been tossing this whole generator thing around for about 6 months now.. It's getting into our "long days" time of the year here again.. I am torn between the Honda (or Yamaha) 1000 or 2000..

Here's my dilemma:

I have 6S 5100mah and 12S 4400 MAH packs that I fly. Also some 3S for a 450, but they really don't factor in in this example.

If I want to SIMPLY be able to charge a single pack at a time with my Hyperion 1420 charger which maxes out at 6C. Why wouldn't a smaller 1000 generator work just fine? The MOST I could pull at the charger is 550 watts and about 20amps at 4C, that's the top of the chargers capability on a single 6S 5100 pack. a 12S would still only pull 20 amps.. If I connect my 2 server power supplies to the generator and run the charger on 24volts at the max of 20 amps for a single pack.. Why wouldn't the 1000 generator work ok?? The charger is still only pulling a max of 550W right??

Subsequently.. If I were to connect my 720 Duo charger and limit each "side" of the charger to only 2C on the same pack. (10 amps) would that not be the same draw?? Therefore letting me charge 2 6S 5100 packs in about a half hour???

I want to be able to charge at the field, I want to buy a QUALITY generator.. BUT, I don't want to lift almost 50 LBS in and out of the truck. I also want to minimize the space used in the truck. and of coarse, the price difference, (which is on the bottom of the considerations chart)

Also, If the Power supply is in line here.. Doesn't it only pull about 7-8 amps from the Generator anyways?? and then increase that value to get me my higher amp load demand?? What would TRULY be the MAX charging "load" I could place on the generator with the equipment I have listed here. (I also have a second 24V power supply can I run 2?)

Thanks for any help in this decision process. I have read a LOT of the other posts on here. But no one really just get's down to the NEEDS angle like I have explained here..

Thanks,
Viper

Team Synergy RC.
Team Scorpion. Team Magnum Energy.

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08-31-2013 02:34 PM  5 years agoPost 2
DemetriusUSN

rrVeteran

Virginia Beach, Va USA

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Look on ebay for the Champion generator, its a third of the price of the Honda, just a quiet and does a great job. A couple of guys have them here and I will be getting one also, I don't have Honda money, check it out.

Minicopter Diabolo 800, Minicopter Triabolo 700, Minicopter Diabolo 700, Minicopter Diabolo 600, Minicopter Diabolo 550, Goblin 770

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08-31-2013 02:36 PM  5 years agoPost 3
theviper

rrApprentice

Gilbert, AZ.

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Thanks for the reply and the thought. But it really doesn't answer ANY of my questions.. I want to know the "limits" and NEEDS between the 1000 and 2000 watt generators..

Team Synergy RC.
Team Scorpion. Team Magnum Energy.

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08-31-2013 02:45 PM  5 years agoPost 4
DemetriusUSN

rrVeteran

Virginia Beach, Va USA

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My friend parallel chargers with Cellpro Power Lab 8 I think, uses a 24v power supply. Max charge a 10s setup, he's done 4 packs at once, in roughly 30 min or so with 2000watt gene.

Minicopter Diabolo 800, Minicopter Triabolo 700, Minicopter Diabolo 700, Minicopter Diabolo 600, Minicopter Diabolo 550, Goblin 770

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08-31-2013 02:45 PM  5 years agoPost 5
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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A couple things to keep in mind:
- the 1000W rating on any genny is only an absolute max rating. If it can put out that kind of power period at all, it is going to capable of it for only a short duration. So the important specification is what it can do safely _continuous duty_. That's going to be some fraction of 1000W.

- even running it at max. continuous duty is going to have drawbacks. Things are still going to get hot and that thing is going to be a lot louder than it is when running at lower power draw. So, you have to determine if the noise and power capability is acceptable for the conditions you're going to run it under typically.

- So, as a rough guess, 550W load on a 1000W genny will probably work fine, but it's going to be making more noise than it will be when just idling or under a very light load.

- for calculating any of your power loads the basic formula is current * voltage * efficiency factors of everything in the charging chain (eg. losses due to heat inside your PSU's and chargers). A WAG calc can be current * voltage + 10% or so.

and my usually blasphemous statement:

- if it's gotten to the point that the genny is required to go fly, it's time to start thinking about putting the gas directly into the heli itself, instead of through the long Rube Goldberg chain of genny->PSU->charger->batteries. Lugging all the non-flying stuff of electric around is bad enough; adding a huge genny into the pile just makes all that worse. And that's a _giant_ pile of cash to spend on non-flying accessories that you could be putting into the helicopter.

Personally, what I've found is a 6S setup is about at the limit of what I find fun as far as field equipment. I can fly most of the day on 6S with a single deep-cycle batt and one charger. So I fly my Whiplash electric on 6S exclusively. My Trex 700E isn't much fun on 6s, so when I fly it I just accept that I'll get maybe 3 flights before I have to pack it in.

But if that's not a big deal, I'd strongly suggest a 2KW genny if you're going to be doing any flying on a 12S setup. A 1KW will just simply get too tight too soon, especially if your needs grow into a higher performance heli or more than one 12S heli etc.

There's kind of no way to not spend that kind of money and carry that much stuff around for a 12S setup. None that I've found anyway...

LS

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08-31-2013 02:47 PM  5 years agoPost 6
flyfish

rrApprentice

New Jersey

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08-31-2013 02:48 PM  5 years agoPost 7
DSW

rrApprentice

Oviedo, Florida 32765

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I don't think the load on your DC Charger correlates to the same load on the AC power source.
You plug your Server Power supplies into a 120 VAC, 15 Amp circuit, but you can load your DC charger up to much higher than 15a.

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08-31-2013 02:49 PM  5 years agoPost 8
Tyler

rrElite Veteran

Chicagoland area

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I owned a Yamaha 1,000 and then bought a Honda 2,000. The light weight and portability of the smaller unit is greatly missed. They are both quiet, but the larger honda is even more quiet, especially under load. The larger generator will loaf along at a lower throttle setting while the smaller units have to run at higher output to keep up. I bought my larger generator for the "future" of electric flying needs (bigger models bigger batteries), not what I faced at that time. With 2,000 watt chargers, 15 minute charge times for a pair of 10s 5,000 mah packs, the larger generator was certainly the way to go. Additionally, I wanted an emergency power source for my home during our frequent power outages.

If I didn't fly by myself nearly exclusively I would have more chit-chat time while waiting for a smaller genny to charge packs. Waiting all alone causes me to be more impatient as I listen to the bugs and distant trains passing by.

Having said all of that, I must repeat, I still greatly miss the smaller footprint and weight of the 1,000 watt generator.

With some experience under my belt, I also invested in a 3,000 watt power supply and a second 2,000 watt charger for my home charging station. I can charge up many packs in a short time and head to the local flying pad two blocks away without worrying about charging at the field at all. I could also easily charge up a pile of packs and tote a smaller generator with me just in case I want to replenish a few packs on site. I do find heaving 50pounds around frequently to be very annoying. Then again, sitting for twice as long can be relaxing or annoying.

Just some personal experience for you to consider. These discussions can rarely include "right" and "wrong", just various perspectives.

Tyler

Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.

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08-31-2013 02:59 PM  5 years agoPost 9
doorman

rrProfessor

Sherwood, Arkansas

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Needs..
I run a 1000 Honda
I have 2 Bantam dual chargers. I run a 60 amp rv converter.I can put the gen in econo mode, charge 4x 6s 5000's at 5 amp each and it does not come out of the econo
Don't know if this info will help you out but I am in no hurry so depending on what I have to put back in usually about 30 to45 min

Stan

AMA 2918-Team Spin Blades,,Castle Creations, Unique Aircraft

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08-31-2013 03:07 PM  5 years agoPost 10
theviper

rrApprentice

Gilbert, AZ.

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Sooo much information... It's info overload...
But you all have VERY valid points from different angles..

Doorman, You kinda put it in EASY perspective though based on my original posting.. If you are charging 4 6S 5000 packs at 1C then you are pulling 20 amps. The generator is not going out of Eco mode either. That answers my question. I can charge a single 6S 5100 at 20 amps with no issues.. OR a 12S 5100 at 20 amps as well. Just takes around 30 minutes... This is the answer I was looking for. a 1000KW generator will work in my example just fine..

HOWEVER, as others have pointed out. there is not much headroom there if I want to charge more or faster (more amps) in the future.. I should be able to go up some, but the generator will probably increase in speed and get out of that Eco mode.. But here is the other option in that scenario. If my buddy also buys the 1000, then we can link them for more load.. right??

Decisions, Decisions....

Viper

Team Synergy RC.
Team Scorpion. Team Magnum Energy.

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08-31-2013 03:19 PM  5 years agoPost 11
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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Another less wasteful option, you may have already read about or may not, is a pair of deep cycle 12V batts hooked up in series (for 24v nominal).

If you can keep them in your car/truck full time and have easy access to your charger when you get home (eg. a garage) this a silent option with a lower entry cost.

I have to lug mine each time, but the 2 or 3 times I've tried it with my 2 deep cycles (a 55AH and an 80AH) hooked in series I can get 8 or 9 flights out of a 12S heli before they're too tapped out to continue. Then when you get home, you hook em up in parallel and recharge them overnight with your regular car batt charger.

This is what I would do if I had ready access to 120V at home. But I live in an apt too far away from the parking lot.

Just another idea to consider before it gets _really_ expensive with a $2000 genny lol.

LS

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08-31-2013 03:26 PM  5 years agoPost 12
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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I would get a 2000 if I had to do it again. A 1000 is plenty for my needs, but these generators are super handy to have around, and from the standpoint of being able to use it for other stuff like backup power or to run tools with a wicked startup surge current like a big ShopVac, you need the 2000. Since a 2000 Honda is far from being twice the price of a 1000, endure a little more initial money pain and get the larger genny.

Get a Honda or Yamaha. Pay a big more, get that for what you paid, and then don't worry about it for another for 10 years, literally.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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08-31-2013 03:28 PM  5 years agoPost 13
theviper

rrApprentice

Gilbert, AZ.

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I thought about the 2 batteries.. BUT, here is my issues with them:
1. have to have 2 of them and they are usualy around 20lbs each for the good ones.

2. They take up just as much, if not moore floor space in the truck.

3. I don't like the Idea of battery acid possibly leaking onto my interior.. It's an SUV...

Just some thoughts on that subject...

Viper

Team Synergy RC.
Team Scorpion. Team Magnum Energy.

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08-31-2013 03:42 PM  5 years agoPost 14
mmgaero

rrNovice

san jose, ca

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We field charge with the 1000w Honda generator with a practical limit of 2 6s5000 packs at 2c (10A). As others have pointed out the generator does not supply continuous 1000w - that is max output. Also your power supplies are not 100 percent efficient - be sure that you are using PFC (power factor corrected) supplies or you will have a big hit although many server supplies are pfc. Then charger is not 100percent efficient. Finally our experience is that the Hyperion chargers specifically have a charge algorithm that at times during the cycle will use a burst of current that causes the Eco regulation problems and if you are close to the limit will make the chargers shut down/ reset. You will also be at high throttle/high noise for a good part of the cycle with 1kw. So long story short the 1kw works ok for us for one 12s set (2 6s 5000) at 2c and will probably be fine for your application. We do like the smaller footprint and lower weight but will eventually upgrade to a 2 kw for the simple reason that for continuous practice sessions we could start the day with less charged packs and make up for it charging at field. At the present we start the day with 6 charged sets from home and with the 1kw giving us 1 set every 30 minutes at field we can fly nearly back to back flights.

Jacob Gitin(15)
Sponsored by:
Mikado
Scorpion
Thunderpower

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08-31-2013 03:50 PM  5 years agoPost 15
Tyler

rrElite Veteran

Chicagoland area

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Owning an electric golf cart and well equipped fishing boat has definitely turned me away from the deep cycle battery option for field charging. I maintain 16 batteries at this time. Talk about expensive!! Good ones cost about $155-$189 each. Cheaper batteries are certainly an option, though.

You either have to treat your deep cycle batteries with kid gloves, hit the maintenance routine perfectly, discharge properly, charge with expensive chargers, OR buy expensive deep cycle batteries often.

Deep cycle batteries expel gas, leak fluids containing acid, and really can be a challenge to secure in a safe way to avoid 80 pounds projectiles from being launched at your head in the event of a driving mishap. Adding passengers to the mix makes heavy batteries even less of an option for me.

Deep cycle batteries should be paired up with same make, model, capacity, and age. I'm not saying a guy cannot take two orphan batteries and make them work, but they won't work well and they won't last long.

Buying a series of sealed deep cycle batteries with appropriate quality charger will quickly land you in the same price point of a honda or yamaha generator, and this is for the first round of batteries. Buying them again in three years will hurt a second time, thus taking you beyond the cost of a generator.

Plus, the lead acid batteries are not useful for tools and other remote needs, let alone home power outages.

The never ending hassle, disadvantages, and ongoing costs of lead acid batteries makes then NOT an option for me.

Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.

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08-31-2013 03:52 PM  5 years agoPost 16
Craigdieslemac

rrKey Veteran

Valdosta, Ga USA

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costs less than or equal to a good 12s setup..

[url=http://www.lowes.com/pd_106885-87012-40026_4294641574__?productId=3218343&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo=]

and its 3000 watts..no big deal

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08-31-2013 04:06 PM  5 years agoPost 17
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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No no no, lots of myths here on DC batts....
You either have to treat your deep cycle batteries with kid gloves, hit the maintenance routine perfectly, discharge properly, charge with expensive chargers, OR buy expensive deep cycle batteries often.
Wrong on all counts. The only thing you have to do is buy decent AGM deep-cycle sealed batteries. Don't buy wet cell lead acids unless you can deal with possible spillage. There's a slight premium at purchase time with AGM's, but that's all. Then just get a decent 12V charger at Autozone with an AGM charge mode. You're done. No, you don't have to buy them often. You won't have to buy them again for a long time. I've had my two for about 4 years now and they're still working fine.
Deep cycle batteries expel gas, leak fluids containing acid,
Again, you're thinking of wet cell LA batts here. AGM batts don't expel as much gas during charge and they don't leak any fluids at all when upset (many AGMs can even be installed in non-upright positions).
and really can be a challenge to secure in a safe way to avoid 80 pounds projectiles from being launched at your head in the event of a driving mishap. Adding passengers to the mix makes heavy batteries even less of an option for me.
True of a genny also . But true it's not a good option if you don't have a good way to secure the batts in the car/truck.
Deep cycle batteries should be paired up with same make, model, capacity, and age. I'm not saying a guy cannot take two orphan batteries and make them work, but they won't work well and they won't last long.
Wrong. There's no such requirement. As long as they're 13.8V nominal batts, you can hook them up in either parallel or series with no problems. The only thing to pay attention to is, when wired in series, the overall current capability is reduced to basically the capacity of the lowest amp-hour batt. In parallel, they only have to be the same nominal voltage rating - they can have different current capacities.

In fact, hooking up several inexpensive batts is a perfectly good way of achieving a large pool of battery power. You can do any combination of series-parallel as long as it gives you either 12V or 24V total. 24V is preferred obviously if your charger can take a 24V input - it's much easier on the charger at high charging rates.

The deep cycle route is a good option; only shy away from it if you can't deal with the weight or don't have a way to readily recharge, etc.

LS

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08-31-2013 04:29 PM  5 years agoPost 18
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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I thought about the 2 batteries.. BUT, here is my issues with them:
1. have to have 2 of them and they are usualy around 20lbs each for the good ones.
2. They take up just as much, if not moore floor space in the truck.
3. I don't like the Idea of battery acid possibly leaking onto my interior.. It's an SUV...
Just some thoughts on that subject...
Well like I said in my other post, AGM batts are typically sealed and don't leak acid when upset.

But true if you have to haul them each time they're not a good option due to the weight. I've done it before and stopped after oh I'd say the 3rd time I did it lol.

Now I usually hump only one and bring the Whiplash which I run on 6S. The trex I just resign myself to only about 3 flights since I have to run it on 12S...

LS

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08-31-2013 05:14 PM  5 years agoPost 19
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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I did a lot of research on all the available options and purchased a Honda EU2000i three years ago and never looked back.

When my SUV's starter battery needed to be replaced I replaced it with a Die Hard Platinum AGM battery which has a 10 year warranty. Apparently this battery is made by Johnson Controls and IIRC it was just a little over $200. Good quality AGM batteries are quite a bit more expensive than lead acid batteries.

I put the AGM in the vehicle for those days when I need to charge a few small-mid sized packs and don't want to the lug the generator to the field. When I replace the vehicle I'll likely keep the battery.

For those interested in learning more about deep cycle batteries this FAQ is an excellent resource.

http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-...attery-faq.html

  

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08-31-2013 05:17 PM  5 years agoPost 20
GScott

rrElite Veteran

Lewis Center, OH

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I ran the Yamaha 1000 for a season and it easily handled charging a 6s 5000 at 20 amps. I picked one up on Craigslist for about $500. Another option instead of deep cycles are large capacity Li-Fe cells. They are supposed to be good for thousands of cycles and are lighter than the typical deep cycle. The downside is cost. They will probably cost as much as the Honda 2000 generator.

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