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HomeOff Topics News & Politics › Is The Bible True?
09-06-2013 09:30 PM  5 years agoPost 141
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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unclejane, by the way, i will try to find time to read the things you've linked to, but I'm sure you understand that I want to give them somewhat careful consideration, and that there are many other things in our lives outside of this forum. I do, however, believe these topics merit serious, and careful, discussion.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-06-2013 09:49 PM  5 years agoPost 142
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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You realize that this, as written, is nonsensical? How is saying that "the lack of believe in the claim by theists" not making making a claim about god? I might say "God exists!" and you might say "I don't believe your claim!" Are you therefore not making a statement which is, though indirectly, a claim about god?
Absolutely not. I'm not making any claim to knowledge at all. I don't know either way whether your god exists. All I'm saying is I have no reason to accept _your_ claim to knowledge of the existence of your god as _definitely true_ _until_ you present some evidence that _supports_ that claim.

Think of it like this:
- you're saying proposition X is true (a raw assertion with no evidence).
- I'm saying the truth value of X cannot be determined from the information given. Prove your assertion by presenting some evidence for it, then I'll reconsider a truth value for X.

That's _absolutely not_ congruent with:
- you're saying X is true
- I'm saying X is not true (or false).

"I don't believe you" or "prove it" is _not_ a claim to knowledge like "no, your god does not exist". Two totally different animals.
Look, plainly, if someone says they are an atheist, then they are making the claim that there is no god.
Or that it is not worth considering whether there is a god and they will practically conduct their lives as if the claim "there is no god" is true.
Wrong and wrong.

LS

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09-06-2013 09:50 PM  5 years agoPost 143
Dusty1000

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Glasgow, U.K.

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I might say "God exists!" and you might say "I don't believe your claim!" Are you therefore not making a statement which is, though indirectly, a claim about god?
He would be rebutting your claim about the Christian God, assuming that is the God you would be referring to.

Just as if a Hindu said ''Brahma exists,'' and you said ''I don't believe your claim,'' you would be rebutting that claim about the Hindu God Brahma.

Dusty

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09-06-2013 09:53 PM  5 years agoPost 144
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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uj, so you do not claim that there is no god?

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-06-2013 09:58 PM  5 years agoPost 145
outhouse

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auburn ca

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You're certainly able to believe what you want,as I am also. I will believe as I wish and will be thru with this forum as I don't need to see my faith badgered by anyone . I am not trying to force anything on anyone so we'll just leave it at that.Thanks for the space. Wayne
No problem Wayne.

I respect your theism.

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09-06-2013 09:59 PM  5 years agoPost 146
unclejane

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He would be refuting your claim about the Christian God.
Just as if a Hindu said ''Brahma exists,'' and you said ''I don't believe your claim,'' you would be refuting that claim about the Hindu God Brahma.
Exactly. It's how you would react when I say "magical elves exist!". You don't claim to know that magical elves _don't_ exist a-priori. You do, however, _dis_believe my claim in the absence of evidence and continue to do so until I present you with something.

You may eventually come to strongly _suspect_ those elves don't exist after a long enough period of relentless non-presentation of evidence (by myself), but even at that you most likely won't ever come to _know period_ that no elves exists.

Again, "I don't believe X" is _not_ the same as "X is not true" or "X is false".

LS

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09-06-2013 10:00 PM  5 years agoPost 147
outhouse

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auburn ca

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He might claim that.

I do not. Atheist are all different in their lack of theism.

I know how man created your god down to the details of exactly how, why when and where.

History is not a challenge if one decides to open a real book and read.

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09-06-2013 10:01 PM  5 years agoPost 148
unclejane

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uj, so you do not claim that there is no god?
I do not claim to have knowledge that your god does _not_ exist, that is correct. It _might_ exist (tho I suspect strongly that it does not) or it might not, but I don't _know_ that it does not exist.

LS

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09-06-2013 10:16 PM  5 years agoPost 149
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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So LS, on the topic of god's existence, you claim ignorance.

Does that not make you an agnostic? Though in the presumption of atheism definition, you would encompass all who are non-theists under the term "atheist". Is that correct?

If that is your claim, that sufficient evidence has not been presented to show the existence of god, I have this question:

If sufficient evidence were presented, would you alter your view to theism?

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-06-2013 10:27 PM  5 years agoPost 150
helimatt

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on the question of these hypothetical "magic elves"- doesn't that trivialize the discussion? Magic elves are hardly the basis claim for a major religion. And regardless of that, question of their existance or non-existance pales in comparison to the prospect of a personal, creator god.

So that ruse, or the "tea pot orbiting Jupiter" or the "flying spaghetti monster" should be put down as spurious fluff.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-06-2013 10:43 PM  5 years agoPost 151
Thomas L Erb

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Alliance ohio

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From the link provided

Step One: don't believe in any gods.

That's it, there are no steps two, three, or four. All you have to do is not believe in the existence of any gods. None of the following are steps in becoming an atheist:

You don't have to deny the existence of any gods
You don't have to assert that no gods exist
You don't have to be certain that no gods exist
You don't have to join the Communist Party
You don't have to be rebelling against your family
You don't have to stop celebrating Christmas
You don't have to burn a picture of Jesus
You don't have to eat Christian babies in satanic rituals
You don't have to care about religion, theism, or gods

So if you look at the don't list number 1 , by this standard none of you here are athiestIs this correct?

You cannot legalize morality. It's internal not external. You either have it or you don't.

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09-06-2013 10:57 PM  5 years agoPost 152
unclejane

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So LS, on the topic of god's existence, you claim ignorance.
You got it. I _don't know_ if your claim is true or not true, because you've not given any reality-based reason to believe _your_ assertion that it _definitely is true_.
So I don't believe it. QED.
Does that not make you an agnostic?
Yes. In fact, to be technical about it, I'm an agnostic atheist. Gnosticism and theism are descriptions of orthogonal states, essentially. Gnosticism is about what you think you _know_ or what you think you can prove. Theism is about what you _believe to be true or not_. Two different things.

These positions can exist in multiple combinations, in fact. For example an agnostic theist is someone who believes in a particular god but doesn't claim to _know_ whether it exists or doesn't think he can prove it. A gnostic atheist, OTOH, is an atheist who also makes the additional claim that he also knows to a certain level of certainty that the god does _not_ exist (this is also called "strong atheism" ). And so on.
Though in the presumption of atheism definition, you would encompass all who are non-theists under the term "atheist". Is that correct?
Yes. If you don't believe in whatever god it is that's being claimed, you're an atheist (with respect to that god). If you do, you're a theist. It's that simple. For example, you are an atheist with respect to Allah (you dont' believe in the god of Islam), and so forth.
If that is your claim, that sufficient evidence has not been presented to show the existence of god, I have this question:
If sufficient evidence were presented, would you alter your view to theism?
Of course.

To me, it's better to only believe true things. So, if the existence of a god were actually demonstrated to a level sufficient to support the claim that it really is real in the usual way we do such a thing - meaning that the evidence is so compelling that the argument is over, the result is repeatable and robost and so forth - I'd have no choice.

That's how we arrived at truths like the heliocentric solar system, the germ theory of disease, evolution by natural selection and all these other facts about our world. At some point, the evidence wins and the argument about whether they're real phenomena or not is ended. They have become facts.

So if you guys can demonstrate it satisfactorily in the same way as these other phenomena in our world, we would have to take a look at it. But so far.. not a shred worthwhile has been offered on your god so....

That's the idea.

LS

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09-06-2013 11:03 PM  5 years agoPost 153
Thomas L Erb

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Alliance ohio

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Tis as well

"To call them different types is to imply on some level that they are separate — a person is either a strong atheist or a weak atheist. If we look more closely, however, we will note that almost all atheists are both on various levels. The primary indication of that can be seen in that the definition of weak atheism, lacking belief in the existence of any gods, is in fact that basic definition of atheism itself.

What this means is that all atheists are weak atheists. The difference, then, between weak and strong atheism is not that some people belong to one instead of the other, but rather that some people belong to one in addition to the other. All atheists are weak atheists because all atheists, by definition, lack belief in the existence of gods. Some atheists, however, are also strong atheists because they take the extra step of denying the existence of at least some gods.

Technically, saying that “some” atheists do this isn’t entirely accurate. Most, if not all, atheists are willing to deny the existence of some gods if asked — few only “lack belief” in the existence of Zeus or Apollo, for example. Thus, while all atheists are weak atheists, pretty much all atheists are also strong atheists with respect to at least some gods."

So from reading this an athiest can claim not have knowledge of the existance a perticular god but can refur to having knowledge that a perticular god doesn't exist if they so choose and still be covered under the blanket,of athiesism while the whole time not really an ism at all be suet they don't have any knowledge of its existance at the same time as they deny the one or others at the same time unless they are weak athiest but can be strong if they claim to hav eknowledge to deny what they don't believe exist. Whew Did it get right this time guys?

You cannot legalize morality. It's internal not external. You either have it or you don't.

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09-06-2013 11:06 PM  5 years agoPost 154
Dennis (RIP)

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Oregon

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So if you guys can demonstrate it satisfactorily in the same way as these other phenomena in our world, we would have to take a look at it. But so far.. not a shred worthwhile has been offered on your god so....
You know that's impossible as you are asking.

Thats where faith comes in, and why faith itself is its own evidence of a truth.

Once again, you don't have to accept that if you choose not to.

It is what it is.

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09-06-2013 11:08 PM  5 years agoPost 155
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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on the question of these hypothetical "magic elves"- doesn't that trivialize the discussion? Magic elves are hardly the basis claim for a major religion. And regardless of that, question of their existance or non-existance pales in comparison to the prospect of a personal, creator god.
Nope. Both have exactly the same basis in evidence: zero. So the comparison between your Christian god, Allah, and my elves and the FSM are all equally comparable in terms of truth value. I don't believe in any of 'em until I see some evidence for their existence.
So that ruse, or the "tea pot orbiting Jupiter" or the "flying spaghetti monster" should be put down as spurious fluff.
As should your god, until you guys produce some reason for anyone to believe it's real and actually does what you claim it does.

LS

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09-06-2013 11:09 PM  5 years agoPost 156
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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You know that's impossible as you are asking.
What makes you say that?

LS

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09-06-2013 11:14 PM  5 years agoPost 157
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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So from reading this an athiest can claim not have knowledge of the existance a perticular god but can refur to having knowledge that a perticular god doesn't exist if they so choose and still be covered under the blanket,of athiesism while the whole time not really an ism at all be suet they don't have any knowledge of its existance at the same time as they deny the one or others at the same time unless they are weak athiest but can be strong if they claim to hav eknowledge to deny what they don't believe exist. Whew Did it get right this time guys?
Well... at least you're doing your reading (unlike most), though this last paragraph went a little GrayEagle on ya there....

LS

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09-06-2013 11:22 PM  5 years agoPost 158
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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So if you look at the don't list number 1 , by this standard none of you here are athiestIs this correct?
You're still GrayEagle'ing on me here. I can't understand what you're asking...

LS

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09-06-2013 11:32 PM  5 years agoPost 159
Dennis (RIP)

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Oregon

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What makes you say that?
You said.........
So if you guys can demonstrate it satisfactorily in the same way as these other phenomena in our world, we would have to take a look at it. But so far.. not a shred worthwhile has been offered on your god so....
Other phenomena in our world cannot be compared to God. Not even close. God is not a phenomena.

Simply because of your lack of faith in God, you will always deny Him.

Thats not a slam on your lack of faith.

Its just a fact that you have no practical experience in that area. Certainly not on any level that I have seen.

Thats why you will deny that faith itself is its own evidence.

Your choice.

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09-06-2013 11:37 PM  5 years agoPost 160
outhouse

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auburn ca

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Technically, saying that “some” atheists do this isn’t entirely accurate. Most, if not all, atheists are willing to deny the existence of some gods if asked — few only “lack belief” in the existence of Zeus or Apollo, for example. Thus, while all atheists are weak atheists, pretty much all atheists are also strong atheists with respect to at least some gods."
By this methodology, all theist are also strong atheist.

As I know you do not believe in alla, apollo or zues.

You don't make much sense copy and pasting nonsense you don't know anything about..

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