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HomeOff Topics News & Politics › Is The Bible True?
04-09-2014 10:00 PM  4 years agoPost 2101
Dusty1000

rrApprentice

Glasgow, U.K.

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Well we are Not into THrowing them Into Fire Pit's
We are considerably less tyrannical, and considerably more merciful, than you believe your God is.

When in Rome....

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04-09-2014 10:18 PM  4 years agoPost 2102
helicopter

rrApprentice

Omaha, Nebraska

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Atheists:

You have the right to CHOOSE.

To Believe the Great Lie.

Or To Believe the TRUTH.

In either case you WILL MEET GOD.

Hold on now,

Either you take the GIFT of Life in His Son
our Lord Jesus, and SEE God NOW by Faith,

OR:

You blow OFF God's Offer of Mercy and Grace
and die without BELIEVING the TRUTH,

You WILL meet God at the Last Judgement!

Where Hell awaits the UNBELIEVER.

Is THAT what you TRULY DESIRE?

I love gravity, it always keeps my feet planted when I fly!

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04-09-2014 10:31 PM  4 years agoPost 2103
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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To Believe the Great Lie.
Or To Believe the TRUTH.
Lessee... what is it, 3 hours now since I asked you to tell Him to make me a Christian? And here I'm still an atheist all afternoon. I think your miracle has broken down on the side of the road somewhere, steam boiling out with the hood up.

Believable Index == falling, falling

LS

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04-09-2014 10:40 PM  4 years agoPost 2104
GREYEAGLE

rrElite Veteran

Flat Land's

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Yup -Uh Huh -You Betcha : Please TELL Dusty : Truth will set you Free ?????
We are considerably less tyrannical, and considerably more merciful,
Let them come here ! Under Freedom !!! and Liberty : THE WOMEN
We will teach them how to SIng!
How to Dance !
Buy them Fine Linen and Very Fine Reament's -
Even Fancy Under Pant's!! The Hoochi Koochi

Room's of colors - Shoe's !!! AND gOLD AND geM'S ! Boble's and Bangels
eDUCATE THEM TO BE qUEEN'S ! OF kNOWLEDGE !

LETTING THEIR cHILDREN lAUGH -Just be Happy and Silly - Goofier
and Run and Spin and Jump ! Have Bicycles and Ponies : TOYS ------

Safety for their Children

Then they get too teach use how too do that Crazy Bird Call with the Pencil Under the Tongue

greyeagle

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04-09-2014 11:10 PM  4 years agoPost 2105
Hoggy42

rrNovice

Australia

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Helimatt
They also thrust a spear into Jesus' side and "blood and water" emanated from the wound. This indicates that He suffered massive heart failure, as the pericardium filled with fluid (lymph, or water; it is a clear liquid). This is consistent with suffocation death (on the cross) and the general shock from loss of blood due to the scourging. Like we said, the Romans were experts at death in this manner.
Did he crap himself too? that would be consistent with death. Maybe they gave him a jab with the spear and he urinated that would be consistent with water and I'm not surprised there would be blood.

Look I don't know. To be fair I'm not even sure he existed and I don't really care. Is what I am saying however is that there are more plausible answers then what you believe. How do you respond to him being a grand illusionist? Because I can feel in all of your blanks using that. It's far more plausible then your answers.

Something I found interesting after talking with you I went and did a little homework on crucifixion's it seems from what I can find that it was pretty normal for the romans to leave the body's up on the crucifix to rot. Makes one think why would they take down the body of someone they disliked so much. I guess that's what happens when you make up story's long after the event.

Thanks for only taking the time to try and answer just one of my questions put to you. I guess the others were too hard.

Dennis
Try explaining that.
I did already many of your possible future scientists believe the world is less then 10,000 years old that evolution is not true and humans walked with the dinosaurs... And many other silly things. Hence they will not become scientists and the great minds your country has produced will be forgotten while the rest of the world takes over. Your happy to do nothing about that cool I'm not saying you can't be a Christian you can believe superman is real for all I care. But when your happy to let reality be crushed by superstition created by men 2000 odd years ago who had no concept of our planet let alone the universe. Well your a pussy.

Thomas
Ok so why if I choose this line of thinking I'm racisest,prud,mean and so on yet for you it's all good? Really. The double standerd here is ridiculous .
I have a problem with gangs of people who try to force their unqualified beliefs into law and who want special treatment. And want to scare children and lie to substantiate their claims. Sorry where is the double slandered I treat anyone who does this the same including atheists.
So you think he is still alive and hiding? Somehow thats a pretty good reach, so where do you think that flight 370 went while we are daydreaming here.
No it's funny I believe your president. It's you lot that think all he does is lie. Plus it's fun to see how many of you are tinfoilers. I can guarantee that the mystery of MH370 was not magic.

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04-10-2014 12:15 AM  4 years agoPost 2106
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Plus it's fun to see how many of you are tinfoilers.
Millenarians is what I call em. Super-mega-ultra-Overprepared for an apocalypse of some kind. Everyone is against them - Obama, the government, the democrats, the blacks, the gays, the Jews, the Catholics, the crack-mothers, Nancy Pelosi... They're probably all digging out bomb shelters under their basements or endlessly cleaning their guns in Unabomber shacks out the wilderness with no electricity or running water.

Not your average Christians (fortunately for them) but they somehow found their way onto here.

LS

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04-10-2014 01:11 AM  4 years agoPost 2107
Thomas L Erb

rrKey Veteran

Alliance ohio

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I have a problem with gangs of people who try to force their unqualified beliefs into law and who want special treatment. And want to scare children and lie to substantiate their claims. Sorry where is the double slandered I treat anyone who does this the same including atheists.
So what happened to your love for gays ? They do exactly that every day yet you support them do you not? That is what you have shown here! The BS DOUBLE standard lives I you!

You cannot legalize morality. It's internal not external. You either have it or you don't.

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04-10-2014 02:05 AM  4 years agoPost 2108
Hoggy42

rrNovice

Australia

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So what happened to your love for gays ? They do exactly that every day yet you support them do you not? That is what you have shown here! The BS DOUBLE standard lives I you!
Sorry did I miss something? Did Christian groups finally allow the LGBT community equal rights? did you stop treating their love for each other as amoral?

You want the protesters and pride marches to go away how about you treat them the same.

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04-10-2014 02:22 AM  4 years agoPost 2109
Thomas L Erb

rrKey Veteran

Alliance ohio

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what?
Sorry did I miss something? Did Christian groups finally allow the LGBT community equal rights? did you stop treating their love for each other as amoral?
Did you forget this statement?
I have a problem with gangs of people who try to force their unqualified beliefs into law and who want special treatment. And want to scare children and lie to substantiate their claims. Sorry where is the double slandered I treat anyone who does this the same including atheists.
So in your mind gangs of gays pushing their adgenda is fine but Christians can not and you dont see the hiprocity in your train of thought? Really?

You cannot legalize morality. It's internal not external. You either have it or you don't.

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04-10-2014 03:01 AM  4 years agoPost 2110
helicopter

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Omaha, Nebraska

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Janie:
Sad to say it, but I must.

You're not going to meet The God of the Bible, most
likely until your demise.

Why do I say that?

Because you clearly wish to USE Him for your
self-aggrandizement.

God will not surrender to you.

You must surrender to God.

And until you're willing to do that,
sin death hell and an eternal grave awaits.

Gays? I am leaving the final JUDGEMENT to God.

If you still mistakenly believe the penis and the
vagina came to be as a result of an explosion in the
universe 14 billion years ago, you sir are missing
the Truth. Let God be TRUE and every man a liar. Amen.

I love gravity, it always keeps my feet planted when I fly!

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04-10-2014 03:05 AM  4 years agoPost 2111
Hoggy42

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Australia

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So in your mind gangs of gays pushing their adgenda is fine but Christians can not and you dont see the hiprocity in your train of thought? Really?
What their agenda EQUALITY Those evil SOB's just like them dam Nig....Blacks eh Thomas.

What versus the Christian agenda of inequality. Hardly the same.

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04-10-2014 03:24 AM  4 years agoPost 2112
helimatt

rrElite Veteran

Lafayette, IN

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Hoggy, I am happy to have the chance to dialog with you, but busy and not had time to address all the things you brought up. I'll try. I do try not to simply link to other websites and such, so it takes some thought and maybe time not to be rash or flippant. This is an important topic, and worth discussing with care.

BTW- I don't think the Romans "hated" Jesus, they were indifferent. Pilate wanted to hand Him back as the customary appeasement during the Feast. The "Jews" and the crowd were incited to demand His crucifixion. So maybe not surprising they didn't leave Jesus' body on the cross to rot. Did He crap himself- yes most likely! Hence the fragrant oils He was wrapped with! Gospel writers weren't crass enough to record that detail.

LS, same again, but we need to understand the ground rules for this sort of discussion . What would you consider proof of a miracle? And yes, I'll read the site you linked because it matters to me where you are coming from and no I should not assume (though one can gather a lot from what you type here).

outhouse, ... you clearly believe there is no God and stated that miracles are not possible. So no level of proof could ever be sufficient. How do you know there is no God? Puts you deep into the minority of the present population not to mention historical. You may be right- what support to the unique claim? And I may go through the websites you linked, but not very inclined because of the insulting and belittling attitude you keep coming back with. What drives you to so vehemently and repeatedly press your superior "understanding" and wisdom, with all the name calling etc?

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-10-2014 03:36 AM  4 years agoPost 2113
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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LS, same again, but we need to understand the ground rules for this sort of discussion . What would you consider proof of a miracle? And yes, I'll read the site you linked because it matters to me where you are coming from and no I should not assume (though one can gather a lot from what you type here).
I already told you what you need to do, twice now. Here it is again:
- provide a definition of "miracle"; it needs to be "supernaturally" capable of resurrecting someone from the dead at the very least, since that's the claim you're offering and must support. You should define "supernatural" also, since that's an inherent part of your claim too.
- produce an actual instance of that miracle that we can examine. Raise someone from the dead, or get someone who can to raise someone from the dead, for example.

That'd be the best start and we can go from there.

The ground rules are you must demonstrate your claims. You must show how these "miracles", like raising people from the dead, are possible and that they are real phenomena.

Simply pleading with me to accept your assumptions and claims on "faith" will not pass muster. Recursively citing the bible will not pass muster. Your job is to support your claims. I just told you again the framework within which you need to do it. Only then will I take anything you say seriously.

LS

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04-10-2014 03:50 AM  4 years agoPost 2114
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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LS, clearly I define a miracle as the direct intervention of God's "hand" in the natural world. So someone walking on water without any device may be a miracle. A person deaf and dumb from birth, due to either physical or mental/emotional problems, suddenly being healed, made whole, and able to talk- that would be a miracle. Someone being raised from the dead (I've not personally seen this but have written records from what I consider reliable sources of this happening). Further I'd differentiate these as miracles of God if it was clear given the circumstances that God's power was the force through which these happened.

If I was deaf and suddenly began hearing during an operation intended to correct a physical problem preventing me from hearing- that'd be awesome and I'd praise and thank God, but not call it a miracle in that sense.

We could go on, but you get the gist and I'm sure your not surprised by the definition I've given. I could link you to a website but that'd be insulting to you.

Proof- so earlier you said you wanted repeatability- like a scientific investigation where an experiment is repeated. Well, history don't work like that. Something can happen ONCE and be true in space-time and be a miracle.

The historical aspects of Jesus' life, ministry, teachings, punishment and execution, and the reports and details surrounding His resurrection are the proofs. And they can be considered good evidence, when examined carefully one by one, with even-handedness.

However, if the metaphysical impossibility of a miracle is maintained, then alternate explanations are needed for what history records and so many many came to believe and live and sometimes suffer and die for. I believe in God, and believe He can do miracles and the best evidence of His love is the miracle of Jesus.

None of the above is detailed "evidence" or proof- just an outline.

been reading the "about.com" websites you linked a couple pages back about Atheism or whatever I should refer to it as. In any case, I get your distinction; seem that suspending belief in the existence of a god, or having non-belief or absence of belief in god is really the low road. No decisions, not committed, won't say yea or nay. Not really seeking to either. Is that where you are? Because I'd say you do NOT have absence in belief in God; you clearly have may strongly held beliefs about God. Now, I do realize that belief "in" and belief "about" are not the same thing. But don't you in fact possess beliefs that specifically pertain to God?

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-10-2014 04:09 AM  4 years agoPost 2115
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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LS, clearly I define a miracle as the direct intervention of God's "hand" in the natural world.....Someone being raised from the dead (I've not personally seen this but have written records from what I consider reliable sources of this happening). Further I'd differentiate these as miracles of God if it was clear given the circumstances that God's power was the force through which these happened.
Ok, let's start with that as a working definition:
- this "direct intervention" must be observable.
- it must clearly be the work of a "god". You'll eventually need to define this "god" also, such that it is real and is capable of this "direct intervention" but we'll leave that aside.
- it is capable of raising a dead person back into the living.
Proof- so earlier you said you wanted repeatability- like a scientific investigation where an experiment is repeated. Well, history don't work like that. Something can happen ONCE and be true in space-time and be a miracle.
No no no. Only occurring ONCE is not part of your definition. You do not say that your god can perform its miracles only ONCE. It should be able to do this resurrection thing repeatedly and at will, if whatever it is is truly "miraculous", should it not? Of course it should.

In fact, that kind of robustness is really a requirement. It really does need to be a repeatable phenomenon before we can begin to call it reliable. so this ONCE dodge of yours isn't going to work, sorry.

Also, remember ground rule #2. You must produce an instance of this miracle. That means an actual miracle that we can examine. That means a synchronic example - a miracle in the here and now that meets your definition: your god, directly intervening to raise a dead person back to the living would do it. In fact, since that's the claim you're making - that your god raises people from the dead - that's really what you need to produce.

You're already trying to duck back into doing exactly what I told you not to do - Recursive, repeated and useless citations of unsubstantiated historical hearsay accounts written in some book somewhere.

That will not suffice. I've told you exactly what will suffice for me to believe you, so that's what you have to do. Else, I have no reason to believe a single word you say.
Because I'd say you do NOT have absence in belief in God;
And you would be wrong.

LS

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04-10-2014 04:24 AM  4 years agoPost 2116
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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Let me just say-
Jesus is the One sent from the living GOD- who willingly gave Himself, sinless, for my shame, my guilt, my rebellion against a Holy God. And, in wonder and joy I proclaim the FACT that Jesus was raised again from the dead, and I maintain, with a crowd of witnesses and martyrs that it was God's Holy Spirit that raised Him to Life again. This same Spirit, the promise of God, at work now in me to help, comfort, and perfect His new life in me. I am not ashamed of the Gospel. I have witnessed in m life, and profoundly in the lives of many many others - Release from chains of addiction and inward death, release from anger and from bitterness and rage. Deliverance from suicide and healed marriages. One young girl, deaf and mute from early infancy, able to hear and talk because of God's loving mercy and with joy salvation came to that household. There are many others...

Historical records in the bible are reliable, and they record prophesies about Jesus' coming and the new life of the Spirit. The new testament writers were careful to record eye witness accounts that tell of Jesus' crucifixion. Then they tell that He was laid in a tomb, dead, and sealed. Then a few days later, Jesus' body was not there, and his followers in many locations met with Him, touched Him, talked with Him, ate food with Him, walked with Him- alive! Later, a murderous and conniving, yet prospering young Pharisee was converted after a SUPERNATURAL encounter with Jesus that left Him blind temporarily. After that, He became a proclaimer, a healer, and ultimately a martyr for the name of Jesus the Christ, whom he had sought to eradicate from memory.

Proof 1. The historical accounts written by Luke (the Gospel bearing his name, and the Acts) are full of details of places, people, events that are found to be very accurate and consistent with the writings of others before and after him. These records in Luke are attested to by archelological evidence. See Sir William M. Ramsay, for one, as an expert who made his original goal to prove the books WRONG and error-riddled, through archeological investigation, but found them in fact to be first-rate and accurate.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mitchell_Ramsay]

Proof 2. The historical quality of Luke's writings has been investigated by many and found again to be very scholarly and replete with correct detail. See Colin Hemer, "The Book of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History", for one careful examination of Luke. Disclaimer- I have not read this book in its entirety.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-10-2014 04:33 AM  4 years agoPost 2117
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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Nothing in the definition of a miracle as given requires it to happen repeatedly. One intervention by God ONCE in history is a miracle.

I don't say that only one has happened though but it is not required to prove a miracle by my definition. Do require new qualifications to the definition?

The Spruce Goose flew only once, but nobody denies that it flew. You cannot observe it flying again, sorry.

The Space Shuttle Challenger exploded once-

You came into being ONCE. I don't (yet) deny your existence.

Logically, your requirement that any miracle be done repeatedly to be bona-fide, is unsound.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-10-2014 04:44 AM  4 years agoPost 2118
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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LS wrote:
Also, remember ground rule #2. You must produce an instance of this miracle. That means an actual miracle that we can examine. That means a synchronic example - a miracle in the here and now that meets your definition
You are the one who has set this ground rule, and it is not logically or metaphysically necessary for us to have current miracles so that past miracles are attested as true. You may make this your ground rule, but it is specious.

I have a two-volume scholarly work on miracles in current history (our life time up to the end of the research that went into the book, published a few years back). Would you take the time to read and verify the facts within? Is this a real pursuit of truth for you, or casual opportunity to slap down another theist? The book's entitled "Miracles" by Craig Keener. http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Cred...miracles+keener

Other real miracles- I invite you to come visit me and we'll join the churches and see and meet people. Examine medical records, etc. Sadly, miracles of this nature are not common in the US but certainly not unheard of.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-10-2014 04:47 AM  4 years agoPost 2119
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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If it matters much to anyone- I'm going to be busy for the next day or two and will try to make it back soon but no guarantees.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-10-2014 04:54 AM  4 years agoPost 2120
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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helimatt, grey, Thomas, helicopter, Dennis, you are wasting your time !!

I know cold harts,
I do !!
I have spent all my life trying to connect with 2 cold harts,
I have !!
it did me no good !!
it took me 55 years to learn this !!!!!!
it did me no good at all !!
everything is lost now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have wasted 55 years of my life trying to connect with these 2 cold harts !!

you are wasting your time !!!
give up

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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