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HomeOff Topics News & Politics › Is The Bible True?
04-08-2014 07:26 AM  4 years agoPost 2021
Dennis (RIP)

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Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-08-2014 08:40 AM  4 years agoPost 2022
nitro fun

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They are professors to you, you uneducated fool.
They definitely imbedded their bias into you...

Training someone to think a certain way is like layers of a cake,

The bottom layers are basic and taught without question, and without any opposition so the top can molded into the desired thinking process

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04-08-2014 08:48 AM  4 years agoPost 2023
nitro fun

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Let me guess you attended a university, but they failed to inform you that their is no property of physics that creates any form of a living cell..

I wonder why???

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04-08-2014 01:20 PM  4 years agoPost 2024
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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outhouse, I'm going to keep this brief.

First off- you need to calm down son; I've attempted to start this conversation off on a civil note between you and me and the others.

BTW, you don't know my level of education, nor what I have studied. Please try (harder) not to make yourself look ridiculous; this sort of tirade adds nothing to the discussion.

Okay- thank you for admitting that the "Jesus' body was eaten by dogs and vultures" bit is just a fabrication by somebody which does not stand up to scruitiny.

Now, you've claimed that the report of His resurrection were later additions, no support offered. Nearly all NT scholars, including those who are not believers in Christ, agree that the NT writers were very close to the events, and that the reports of the disciples and many other followers seeing Jesus alive again were not later additions, but their original accounts written down within one generation of the time of Jesus' death and (reported) resurrection.

You don't agree- what facts lend weight to the arguement that the record is not eye witness from those who experienced Jesus alive again?

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-08-2014 02:22 PM  4 years agoPost 2025
Hoggy42

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Australia

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Dennis
Take a pill.
Sorry but when it comes to Christian apologetics I am angered they are scumbags. And you should be even more ticked off then me I hesitate to call them terrorists but the more I think about it the more accurate that term seems. Before you say it I know they are not loading up passenger planes and flying them into buildings or blowing up marathons etc. What Christian apologetics do maybe worse, why I say that is mostly because no one seems to concerned by it at least not in the same way as people are concerned by a bomb going off. They are flat out lying no matter how you see it twisting the words of scientific documents, making stuff up to fit the bible and none of it can stand up to scrutiny. Nothing more then scam artist conmen and woman. So why should you be worried about them because there are those out there who want to believe them over real scientists and those who believe it and spread it to their kids. Dennis you seem like a very patriotic person I find it hard to believe your happy to let these scumbags steal the future from your grandkids. I find it even harder to believe that your happy for the USA to be plunged into the dark ages by idiots, The USA was THE technological world leader how do you feel seeing other country's taking the top spot? Where are your future world leading scientists... Oh that's right they were brainwashed into believing the universe is only 6000 years old, A man saved all the animals from a global flood on a big wooden boat, And that human beings lived with dinosaurs.

Yes scumbag lying Christian apologetics outrage me... The question is why don't they outrage you?

Nitro
Let me guess you attended a university, but they failed to inform you that their is no property of physics that creates any form of a living cell..
At least he's not going to the university of seeing who can breathe the fresh air from car exhausts the longest while losing the least brain function.

Listen up bud physics has never shown the existence of a God. So checkmate goodbye.

Helimatt
You seem like a reasonable guy. Just want to go over this a bit for you.
Now, you've claimed that the report of His resurrection were later additions, no support offered. Nearly all NT scholars, including those who are not believers in Christ, agree that the NT writers were very close to the events, and that the reports of the disciples and many other followers seeing Jesus alive again were not later additions, but their original accounts written down within one generation of the time of Jesus' death and (reported) resurrection.
I think we can all agree as it's been well established that none of the people that wrote the bible ever spoke to or met or saw Jesus with their own eyes. It was all written years later by people who weren't there.

So let me ask you what's more likely

That Jesus was crucified died then came back to life three days later by Supernatural means.

Or that he didn't die on the cross but they thought he had. So they got him down put him in a tomb where he woke up some time in the three days afterwards made some noise and was rescued by one of his followers.

Or that the people that followed him and wanted change from the insane laws of those in power. Made up some story's to tell to try to make changes?

What do you find more likely?

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04-08-2014 02:48 PM  4 years agoPost 2026
GREYEAGLE

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Flat Land's

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Their are some really :
Mad Cricket's in Australia -That are under threat of being sent Home by the Auzzies.

All sort's of chirping going on.

Real MEn LOVE JESUS

God's NOT DEAD :

NOt ONCE WHAT HE HAS EVER PROMISED has FAILED

What HE has Said HE WILL DO - HE has Never LIED

In HIS FAITH FULLNESS :

Concur EVIL and Temptation: HE WILL GUARD YOU

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

GOD IS FAITHFUL

We LOVE YOU HOG WART

greyeagle

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04-08-2014 03:03 PM  4 years agoPost 2027
Dennis (RIP)

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Yes scumbag lying Christian apologetics outrage me... The question is why don't they outrage you?
You can be as outraged as you wish. Don't matter to me.

You have no right to interfere with my right to believe what I choose than I have the right to do the same to you.

What I believe is none if your business and does not affect you.

Liberty once lost, is lost forever.

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04-08-2014 03:11 PM  4 years agoPost 2028
unclejane

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You have no right to interfere with my right to believe
You keep saying this, even tho no one is interfering with your rights to believe. We're criticizing those beliefs, of course, because they're ridiculous, but no one is trying to actually take them away from you.

It sounds like what you really want is a world where no one else is allowed to criticize you (tho not the other way around), not merely religious freedom.

Why do you interpret criticism as interfering with your rights?

LS

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04-08-2014 04:26 PM  4 years agoPost 2029
outhouse

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auburn ca

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you don't know my level of education
I know you have no education at all biblically speaking.
Nearly all NT scholars, including those who are not believers in Christ, agree that the NT writers were very close to the events
That would not be true.

They were far removed from the actual event and none witnessed or heard a word from Jesus himself.

They belonged to a different culture then Jesus writing decades after the fact.

Even Paul only imagined about the earthly Jesus and formed his theology with a heavenly Jesus.
You don't agree- what facts lend weight to the arguement that the record is not eye witness from those who experienced Jesus alive again?
Jesus never even heard that name called to him. Hellenist created the mythology competing with the Emperors divinity. he was a mortal Galilean peasant from Nazareth.

To date, no miracle or divinity has any credibility.

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04-08-2014 04:30 PM  4 years agoPost 2030
helimatt

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Hoggy, as briefly as reasonable (this is the stuff of many scholarly and archelological PhD's):

1. Not enough time to fabricate stories about Jesus from the events to when the accounts are written (Gospels, Acts, and the other new-testament letters and prophetic writings). Fable cannot carry when many are around who can directly refute the invented or mythologically-infused story. So most likely the accounts are accurate to what the eye-witnesses say happened. Many have studied how long it takes for "mythical" or legend stories to develop- and it is at least 200 yrs in all cases.

2. Scourging and crucifixtion are well documented punishments- they were carefully, methodically devised, brutal, and through much experience well designed to bring about death. The Romans knew a dead crucifixtion victim when they saw one. Nobody in that time purported that Jesus was not dead (much much later idea). They and the religious leaders proposed instead that Jesus' dead body was stolen from the grave.

3. Nobody has EVER produced any sign or trace of a body- though the Gospel news is the mind-boggling and revolutionary report that Jesus was resurrected. Surely those wanting to quell the spread the news, and stop growing numbers of Jesus' followers, tried very hard to find the body.

4. Why would the followers of Jesus make up stories that are so amazing (the resurrection), make up the account that WOMEN first found the tomb empty, and then continue with what they knew to be a lie, to their great suffering and in many cases death by execution or exile. What kind of a plan to "make changes" of the power structure?

I believe the most likely scenario is that JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD, by the promise and power of God's Holy Spirit.

No other explanations of the historical records stand up to scrutiny.

The NT writers had direct access to those who were eye-witnesses, or were in fact eye-witnesses.

Consider: If we wanted to write a detailed account of President F.D. Roosevelt's time in office, and following, would that be most likely to contain myth and legendary fabrications, or factual accounts, observations gleaned from others who where there, liningup with historical events and places, in verifiable ways?

If you wanted to write myth such recent events of 70 or so years ago, you'd have to state that it was so up front- or you'd be thrashed for inventing your own fantasy world. The Gospels and NT writings are of similar vein.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-08-2014 04:41 PM  4 years agoPost 2031
helimatt

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outhouse:
"They were far removed from the actual event and none witnessed or heard a word from Jesus himself."

Not true. Written within one lifetime. Ample access to motivation to carefully interview eye witnesses, and catalog their accounts. BTW, John and Peter walked with Jesus. Paul spent much time in Jerusalem with those who did as well, and was in that region throughout Jesus' ministry and crucifixtion, and His resurrection.

"They belonged to a different culture then Jesus writing decades after the fact."

Different culture?? You need to produce facts here. The disciples, and NT writers were Jews together from Isreal/Judah and the surrounding. Paul is a first-class scholar and well trained in Rabbinic schools of top-tier. No evidence that he made up "heavenly stories", unless you disbelieve in supernatural a priori. Luke has been found to be both historically accurate and following careful scholarship in his Gospel and Acts. Writing the final accounts decades later does not disqualify. The Jewish methods of accounting events carefully and truthfully is well documented within their culture and would be completely inconsistent to produce counter-factual accounts.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-08-2014 06:03 PM  4 years agoPost 2032
outhouse

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Your only parrotting apologetics.

Your view does not carry any credibility historically speaking.

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04-08-2014 06:28 PM  4 years agoPost 2033
outhouse

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Many have studied how long it takes for "mythical" or legend stories to develop- and it is at least 200 yrs in all cases.
This is a lie.

It is idiotic.

Augustus witnessed a shooting star or comet, and proclaimed it was his father Caesar, and he was now the "son of god" and divine.

This happened just before jesus was born, and it is where jesus "birth star" developed, as well as where jesus authors coined the term "son of god" as many of the Hellenistic authors were competing with the Emperors divinity who was "son of god" first.

There is mythology in a day. Son of god, and divine because of what he viewed in the sky.

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04-08-2014 06:33 PM  4 years agoPost 2034
outhouse

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Different culture?? You need to produce facts here. The disciples, and NT writers were Jews together from Isreal/Judah and the surrounding.
The Galilean disciples probably went back to Galilee after jesus death. he was a failed messiah in Judaism. And Jesus real followers were devoted Jews teaching and healing Jews.

The authors were Hellenist writing to a Roman audience, trying to distinguish themselves as very diferent from Jews who were viewed as trouble makers.

With Jesus martyrdom at Passover, mythology soon developed surrounding these events, and everything was back filled in by people that did not ever know him. The movement failed in Judaism and the movement flourished in the Diaspora by Roman citizens and Hellenist who found monotheism valuable.

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04-08-2014 06:39 PM  4 years agoPost 2035
outhouse

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Paul is a first-class scholar and well trained in Rabbinic schools of top-tier.
Your over reaching Pauls status.

Paul was a Roman citizen, he was a Hellenist.

Paul used massive amounts of rhetoric to persuade people his teachings were more credible then others.

Judaism had been popular in Hellenistic communities for a very long time. There were many Hellenist every well trained, but NO devoted Jew would break the laws Paul broke without thinking twice.

I dont put much weight into his visit to Jerusalem and meeting real disciples, this is however my personal view. I think there was a house there with memebers of this new movement who were leaders who followed a more Jewish version then Paul whom he argued with and left.

But it is obvious Paul knew nothing of earthly living Jesus. he knew nothing of his Galilean ministry as a traveling teacher taught by John the Baptist.

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04-08-2014 06:42 PM  4 years agoPost 2036
outhouse

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make up the account that WOMEN first found the tomb empty
Stop your nonsense.

The gospel authors all contradict each other on who what when and where, on this topic.

Because none of them knew, what really happened some 40 years after he died.

They were writing about this in the Diaspora, not where it took place.

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04-08-2014 06:46 PM  4 years agoPost 2037
unclejane

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Consider: If we wanted to write a detailed account of President F.D. Roosevelt's time in office, and following, would that be most likely to contain myth and legendary fabrications, or factual accounts, observations gleaned from others who where there, liningup with historical events and places, in verifiable ways?
Remember: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

See, an account of FDR's presidency isn't even remotely the same as a phantasmagorical tale about some street preacher rising from the dead.

These claims are two utterly, completely different things. An account of a president's time in office is a mundane thing, the kind of thing that happens in our world all the time and the type of thing historians document all the time. So we can have a certain level of confidence that that account is relating actual historical events. Believable Index = pretty high to very high.

An account of a street preacher rising from the dead, OTOH, is completely, utterly extraordinary. It's unlike any other event we've ever observed in reality. In fact, no one rising from the dead, like this tale in the bible has ever been observed to happen out here in the real world. Never. Nada, nichts, nothing. Believable Index = 0.

So your proposal above illicitly compares a mundane, normal claim with a completely outlandish one. The expectation in terms of substantiation is completely different for each claim.
If you wanted to write myth such recent events of 70 or so years ago, you'd have to state that it was so up front- or you'd be thrashed for inventing your own fantasy world. The Gospels and NT writings are of similar vein.
No. The biblical tales and FDR's presidency are literally universes apart and aren't even remotely comparable in terms of credibility or historical reporting.

LS

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04-08-2014 06:53 PM  4 years agoPost 2038
GREYEAGLE

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Flat Land's

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GOD made Belly Button Lint and Toe Jam : Evidence : You two are it !

greyeagle

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04-08-2014 06:55 PM  4 years agoPost 2039
helimatt

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uj,
An account of a street preacher rising from the dead, OTOH, is completely, utterly extraordinary. It's unlike any other event we've ever observed in reality.
We can certainly agree on that!

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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04-08-2014 07:01 PM  4 years agoPost 2040
helimatt

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outhouse,
Augustus witnessed a shooting star or comet, and proclaimed it was his father Caesar, and he was now the "son of god" and divine.
Different nature entirely- with the Gospel and account of Jesus of Nazareth, we are talking about historical narratives in real time and real place, not one person making up a notion about himself, isolated completely from events and interactions with others.

Legend accounts surrounding factual events take a long time to take any foothold, long after the events and people involved themselves are distant memory.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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