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09-02-2013 02:27 PM  5 years agoPost 481
Thomas L Erb

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Now getting back to the subject. Hoggy how does evolution fit into the fact that every piece of matter is made up of the exact same base material yet produces not one item that is the same?

Secondly how did evolution decide if it will produce a plant lifeform vers an animal lifeform?

You cannot legalize morality. It's internal not external. You either have it or you don't.

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09-02-2013 02:57 PM  5 years agoPost 482
Hoggy42

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Thomas and others my one burning question through all this for you guys. Why do you disagree with people you should be respecting I'm talking about very smart scientists the Christian ones like Kenneth Miller, Francis Collins etc. They know evolution is correct they know it as a fact even to an extent William Lane Craig doesn't go with young earth creation.

Watch at YouTube

When I started this thread I wanted to share the information and with others we have. The intent here was not to try and tear down your faith at the end of the day many Christians go with theistic evolution and to be honest that would be what I would be hoping for. Of course I have to consider myself to be an anti-theist so from a personal point theistic evolution would not be a best case but it's an improvement.

So the question is WHY do you disagree with the people that you should be getting behind? WHY do you disagree with smart Christians?

Even without looking at any of the evidence that has been laid out here I can tell you I would take the word of Miller and Collins and Dawkins and others telling us that Darwin was correct long before I would take the word of a priest/pastor on creation. For one simple reason they are all very highly qualified biologist's but luckily for us they have been prepared to share their work and show the evidence so I don't just need to take their word for it.

So while this is a little of topic I'd like you to consider this from Carl Sagan

Watch at YouTube

You also might ask why I respect Ken Miller more then others. This may also help you to respect Richard Dawkins a little bit.

Watch at YouTube

Oh and to all of you moaning in your new threads I hope you understand why you were added to the ignore list Grey and Esco you are there forever your both idiots. The others I am prepared to take off shortly but if you come back to post on this thread don't just come back and say God did it blah blah blah. If you have something to add here then by all means come and talk about it. This is after all a science thread it should have nothing to do with religion I understand however there will be some crossover with how you feel about this topic but please take a page from Helimatt or Thomas and bring something other then your bible if you cant do that don't post.

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09-02-2013 04:03 PM  5 years agoPost 483
Dusty1000

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I'm sorry dusty but it is you who is closed minded. I am mearly asking questions and get called a closed minded person.
Your questions were based on the falsehood regarding what you claimed scientists ''believed,'' as opposed to what they have found.

I didn't say you were a ''closed minded person.'' I said that you close your mind. That is a choice that you make.
As far as the monkeys keeping pets I didn't watch the vid but if these are captive animals they were influenced by human intervention, t
If they are wild there is plenty of evidence of cross care of infant animals in nature and this is just another example.

Yes monkeys have some human "traits" but that doesn't mean they are our first cousins.
It's not a long video, and shows that wild monkeys keep pet dogs for some of the same reasons as humans keep pet dogs. The monkeys take puppies away from their parents just like humans do. They keep pet dogs because they have found it to be to their own benefit regarding keeping watch at night and protecting the monkeys from aggressors. They aren't keeping pet dogs for the benefit of the dogs.

The dogs are acting on instinct towards the monkeys, just as dogs similarly act towards their human masters.

But, the point is that just as humans rationally decide to keep pet dogs, monkeys do the same.

That is the trait that I am addressing. Do you accept that monkeys are capable of making rational choices?

The other video shows a team of chimps flushing out then ambushing their prey in an elaborate trap, and reacting in coordination with each other as conditions change. With each member of the team acting in a different role, to make the most of each of their capabilities. Just like humans do.
As far as an animal acting "deceptivelly " as I pointed out this happens all over nature as well but being deceptive to no end but survival and "lieing" to a fellow human is a very different Scenaro all together. This is what you blind your self to. We as humans will lie for many reasons that have nothing to do with survival at all. We will lie to gain anything we "desire" but don't need to survive. Monkeys may use deception to gain food but only until they are fed not to gain Every piece of food that they can get so ta
Hat the others have none. That is called greed which is a very "human" trait. Monkeys don't steal just because the other monkeys have one and they don't.
The reason that both humans and animals steal, is that they ''desire'' something that another person/animal has, regardless of whether it's a matter of survival.

Humans can choose to go out and earn money to buy what they want, or they can choose to steal from others.

Monkeys can choose to go out and catch their own food, or they can choose to steal from others.

But you cannot compare a human stealing something that a monkey has no use for, because a monkey would have no ''desire'' for it. Apart from food, there is very little a human might desire, that a monkey would also desire, although pet dogs are one such example.

As most monkeys survive without pet dogs, monkeys taking puppies away from their parents is obviously not a matter of survival.

So, do you accept that like humans, monkeys also take what does not belong to them, even when it is not a matter of survival?

Perhaps in another several thousand years, monkeys will have learned to ride horses, just like in Planet of the Apes.

Dusty

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09-02-2013 07:00 PM  5 years agoPost 484
Thomas L Erb

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I didn't say you were a ''closed minded person.'' I said that you close your mind. That is a choice that you make.
To me just seem confused or we are losing somthing in the English to English translation on this one.

You cannot legalize morality. It's internal not external. You either have it or you don't.

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09-02-2013 07:44 PM  5 years agoPost 485
Thomas L Erb

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Ok hoggy here is some of William Craig's work. I will investigate him further but. Ythis article seem solid. You be the judge

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-...ruth-or-fiction

You cannot legalize morality. It's internal not external. You either have it or you don't.

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09-02-2013 09:36 PM  5 years agoPost 486
outhouse

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Craig doesnt even make a decent case for anything, and flat perverts out of desperation, what real scientist say.

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09-03-2013 01:36 PM  5 years agoPost 487
helimatt

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Regarding lizard heads that Hoggy was referring to, see previous posts in this thread.
He meant that their heads are larger and bit is stronger (per the reports) which is an adaptation consistent with eating more plant material than they do in other habitats.

My response: Tennis players grow larger bones and muscles in their racket arm. In fact their two arms may have notably different skeletal size and therefore some functional change. Is this evolution- of course not but it is an adaptation.

Back to the lizards: The cecal valve development involved changes to muscles and structures ALREADY PRESENT in the species, not development of new unique species. True they began fuctioning in a way not noted in the lizards that primarily eat insects. This change is needed and again consistent with adaptation to eat more plant material. Refer to the 2008 study of the genetics- that study finds that the lizard population is genetically "identical" to the baseline group that they decended from. Therefore, on a genetic-molecular level WE CANNOT DEDUCE THERE HAS BEEN EVOLUTION. Sorry, but that is what the scientific evidence says.

Another user here PM'd me about that genetic study- he states that there are newer forms of gene testing that should reveal the evolutionary differences. I asked him to post the info, but he declined for other reasons. He is a molecular biologist, so his expert opinion is important. I'm interested so we'll see if this study is conducted. Right now that is only a speculation.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-03-2013 01:39 PM  5 years agoPost 488
helimatt

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I heard on the radio this morning that studies find that men, on the average, are ~11 cm taller today than in the 1870's time frame. Why? we don't yet know. But will it be evidence of human evolution?

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-03-2013 02:34 PM  5 years agoPost 489
Hoggy42

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Australia

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Helimatt,
I am not going to call you a lair but you are attempting to be deceptive.
He meant that their heads are larger and bit is stronger (per the reports) which is an adaptation consistent with eating more plant material than they do in other habitats.
No their heads are larger and a different shape. From the link you supplied.
Morphometric data describing head size and shape show that both males and females of the two populations differ significantly in head morphology [MANOVA; males: Wilks's λ = 0.463, F9,115 = 14.81, P < 0.001; females: Wilks's λ = 0.425, F9,123 = 18.45, P < 0.001 (Table 1 and Fig. 1)] with lizards on Pod Mrčaru having longer, wider, and taller heads than lizards on Pod Kopište (Table 1 and Fig. 1). Differences between populations are not merely the result of differences in overall size but represent distinct changes in head shape
You said
Back to the lizards: The cecal valve development involved changes to muscles and structures ALREADY PRESENT in the species, not development of new unique species.
From the link you supplied
This shift to a predominantly plant-based diet has resulted in the dramatic evolution of intestinal morphology. Morphological analysis of preserved specimens shows the presence of cecal valves (Fig. 4) in all individuals, including a hatchling (26.4-mm snout-vent length, umbilical scar present) and a very young juvenile (33.11-mm snout-vent length) examined from Pod Mrčaru. These valves are similar in overall appearance and structure to those found in herbivorous lacertid, agamid, and iguanid lizards (13, 14) and are not found in other populations of P. sicula (13) or in P. melisellensis. Cecal valves slow down food passage and provide for fermenting chambers, allowing commensal microorganisms to convert cellulose to volatile fatty acids (15, 16). Indeed, in the lizards from Pod Mrčaru, nematodes were common in the hindgut but absent from individuals from Pod Kopište. The fact that <1% of all currently known species of squamates have cecal valves (13, 14) illustrates the unusual nature of these structures in this population. The evolution of these structures has likely gone hand in hand with a novel association between P. sicula on Pod Mrčaru and a set of microorganisms assuring the digestion of cellulose as is suggested by the presence of nematodes in the hindgut of individuals from Pod Mrčaru.
And from the link I supplied
Researchers found that the lizards developed cecal valves—muscles between the large and small intestine—that slowed down food digestion in fermenting chambers, which allowed their bodies to process the vegetation's cellulose into volatile fatty acids.
"They evolved an expanded gut to allow them to process these leaves," Irschick said, adding it was something that had not been documented before. "This was a brand-new structure."
So Helimatt I understand you don't like it but those are the facts. In regards to the molecular biologist you have had a PM from I think I have spoken with this same person in the past I will not out him regardless of if I am right or wrong in my assumption. But if it's who I think it is then you should pay attention the education of this person deserves your respect and so does the important work he does.

In regards to the 11cm on average human height (I'm surprised your using metric BTW) Who knows we will have to wait for studies.

Thomas
can you please explain what you mean here and what it has to do with evolution.
Now getting back to the subject. Hoggy how does evolution fit into the fact that every piece of matter is made up of the exact same base material yet produces not one item that is the same?

Secondly how did evolution decide if it will produce a plant lifeform vers an animal lifeform?
The 2nd part I'll answer evolution doesn't decide anything.

Oh and you should watch those vids Dusty posted they are very interesting I don't get to watch many nature shows because my wife doesn't like the brutal reality. I must admit it was hard to watch the Baboon taking the puppy but I would have never guessed what came next I would have thought they'd eat it.

I've started reading what the link you posted regarding William Lane Craig when I get more time I'll take a better look. I'm not sure if you listened to the interview I posted but he refers to Young Earth Creationists as an Embarrassment. Honestly I don't like the guy but that's a good start.

Dusty thanks for the vids I know there is also some great Big Cat vids showing their hunting which also shows fantastic team work I remember watching one on 3 cheetahs brothers that worked as a team 1 was killed by a snake and the other 2 had to learn to hunt again brilliant stuff.

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09-03-2013 02:44 PM  5 years agoPost 490
helimatt

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you are attempting to be deceptive.
No Hoggy, you should not infer that I am attepting deception. Your accusation is disingenuous. I suggested that the other posts be referred to in order to save time and space. What did I say? Heads larger- check. Cecal valves from existing muscles- check.

Now the Report "states" that this is an evolutionary trait- such an inference is not science based on the morphology (muscles existed already, though did change shape for the function), and NO GENETIC CHANGES NOTED.

I deal with detail design in both metric and American units at work so no problem. The report mentioned the metric measurement I went with that- it was after all a study of European males.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-03-2013 02:52 PM  5 years agoPost 491
Hoggy42

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Australia

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Helimatt
which part of this do you not understand?

"They evolved an expanded gut to allow them to process these leaves," Irschick said, adding it was something that had not been documented before. "This was a brand-new structure."

The last part

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09-03-2013 03:14 PM  5 years agoPost 492
helimatt

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Hoggy, this might be a dead horse- but I'll find the other reports (there are very few as most articles just repeat the original from 2008, and little follow-on can be found). They simply observe that the muscles (which enlarged formed the cecal valve) were already part of this lizard's anatomy.

The articles gleefully refer to this as evolution as if it were already an established fact, even before the scientific data is fully explained or the investigation completed.

Which part of NO GENETIC CHANGE, NO MUTATIONS, NO RE-ARRANGEMENT OF DNA OR OTHER MOLECULAR GENE STRUCTURE, NO NEW OR DELETED GENETIC INFORMATION do you not understand?

If you want to call this evolution, feel free. Then we will need to redefine the term and everything hinges on the proper definition, if our discussion will have any meaning whatsoever.

BTW- these lizards go some distance to support a young earth and rapid development of the speciation we observe today.

The biologists must do this- take some of this lizard population, but them back into a similar habitat to the original transplanted group, and observe if the cecal valve and head morphology changes back. That'd be science.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-03-2013 05:30 PM  5 years agoPost 493
helimatt

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Okay, so some erudite scientists DID do follow up studies in 2010 or so.
http://www.lacertilia.de/AS/Bibliografie/BIB_5062.pdf

Lizards were taken from the Pod Mrcaru island (where the lizards had adapted to predominantly plant diet by changes in their gut and head morphology, including evidence of functioning ileocecal valves which help digest plant material. Changes apparently occurred within a relatively short number of generations. Not ALL the lizards in this island population developed the cecal valve, about 75% of them do, it turns out).

In any case- follow on by feeding those lizards insects- and later disecting the same lizards found NO CECAL VALVES in their digestive track.

So changing the diet immediately reversed the observed mophological change- evolution within one life time! This was checked to be sure this was statitistically significant find- yes it is. Conclusion- it seems the development of this anatomical feature is "plastic" response to environment, and not evidence of evolutionary shift.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-04-2013 12:52 AM  5 years agoPost 494
outhouse

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T-Rex bones have organic matter
God did it! so retards would think the world was 6000 years old.

Despite your wishful thinking the bones are still 65,000,000,70,000,000 years old.

And there are many. not just T-Rex. I wish dumb theist could read.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1685849/

Preliminary research indicates that as a general rule, matrix tissues remaining after demineralization are more extensively altered morphologically than blood vessels and/or osteocytes. The progression of degradation seems to occur as follows: in recent (less than 20kyr) specimens, demineralization leaves a dense, stiff and flexible tissue with structural integrity. Fibres remain in tight association and possess 67nm crossbanding characteristic of collagen under TEM (not shown). Vessels and osteocytes are enclosed within the matrix and cannot be separated without enzymatic digestion. After 100–300kyr, the matrix thins, becoming almost transparent, less stiff and more flexible, but it is still fibrous under transmitted light microscopy, similar to fresh tissues after prolonged enzymatic digestion. In most cases, vessels and cells separate easily from the thin matrix. All demineralized matrices younger than 1Ma including the Pleistocene mammoth and mastodon respond to collagenase digestion with definitive morphological change and, in most cases, complete dissolution of visible collagen. However, a small percentage of matrix from most of these samples, including recent ones, does not digest, but remains as a transparent, fibrous and very thin sheet associated with and attached to some vessels, in which osteocytes can be observed. This indigestible tissue is seen in fresh bone and is identical in morphology to similar material associated with some vessels recovered from fossil bone elements.

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09-04-2013 01:02 AM  5 years agoPost 495
outhouse

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http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...80417112433.htm

Lizards Undergo Rapid Evolution After Introduction To A New Home

Now, an international team of researchers has shown that introducing these small, green-backed lizards, Podarcis sicula, to a new environment caused them to undergo rapid and large-scale evolutionary changes.

Where ignorant theist make their biggest mistake is that evolutionary changes do not always include speciation.

Given more time speciation will happen.

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09-04-2013 01:12 AM  5 years agoPost 496
outhouse

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If theist wish to embarrass all other theist with severe ignorance, that fine. But really stupid people should keep their mouths shut. You are embarrassing humanity.
Where can one study evolution in realtime? Actually see it taking place in person? (No damn where I bet)
Retarded people do not grasp facts. Even making that statement requires a complete lack of knowledge on the subject at hand. Willful stupidity is a much better word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observed_speciation

Observed instances

Island genetics, the tendency of small, isolated genetic pools to produce unusual traits, has been observed in many circumstances, including insular dwarfism and the radical changes among certain famous island chains, for example on Komodo. The Galápagos islands are particularly famous for their influence on Charles Darwin. During his five weeks there he heard that Galápagos tortoises could be identified by island, and noticed that Finches differed from one island to another, but it was only nine months later that he reflected that such facts could show that species were changeable. When he returned to England, his speculation on evolution deepened after experts informed him that these were separate species, not just varieties, and famously that other differing Galápagos birds were all species of finches. Though the finches were less important for Darwin, more recent research has shown the birds now known as Darwin's finches to be a classic case of adaptive evolutionary radiation

Observed instances

Mayr bird fauna[7]
The Australian bird Petroica multicolor
Reproductive isolation occurs in populations of Drosophila subject to population bottlenecking

Observed instances

Ring species The Larus gulls form a ring species around the North Pole.
The Ensatina salamanders, which form a ring round the Central Valley in California.
The Greenish Warbler (Phylloscopus trochiloides), around the Himalayas.

the grass Anthoxanthum has been known to undergo parapatric speciation in such cases as mine contamination of an area.

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09-04-2013 03:35 AM  5 years agoPost 497
helimatt

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outhouse, you are so deeply indoctrinated that you cannot even respond intelligently, with original thought. Cut-paste--rinse, repeat.

When you post your own thoughts they are full of insults and generalized bigoted statements.

Well, I worry about you little fella.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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09-04-2013 03:57 AM  5 years agoPost 498
outhouse

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You are the indoctrinated one.

Evolution is not up for debate, not in any sense.

One really has to be mentally challenged to even question it, it is so far beyond debate.

Retards wont even debate it because they have more intelligence then creationist in this thread.

They teach biology/evolution in every respectable university around the whole world Matt as higher learning.

Evolution is indisputable at this point in time.

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09-04-2013 04:08 AM  5 years agoPost 499
outhouse

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Creationist debate flow chart.

#1 The earth is 4.6 Billion [ish] years old.

A. No. Do not pass go you denounce credible geology and should be shot for being so stupid and closed minded. You embarrass humanity.

B. Yes. Please proceed

Do you pass the first question? If you cannot pass this first question, you have the right to remain quiet. Shut your mouth and keep it that way, you have no place debating anything because you refuse common knowledge, education, and I seriously feel sorry for your children.

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09-04-2013 04:11 AM  5 years agoPost 500
outhouse

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#2. If given credible evidence one way or the other, is your mind open to change?

A. No. If so re read the last post on your severe stupidity. Please shut your mouth, as nothing of value will ever exist it.

B. Yes. Please proceed with the rest of educated society.

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