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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › Is Nitro Dying
09-01-2013 04:48 PM  5 years agoPost 321
McKrackin

rrProfessor

Lucasville,Ohio

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Which runs hotter, a scorpion motor or a kontronik pyro?
At $530 for a Pyro...only the elite few will ever know.lol....I know I never will.

I literally never use the word literally right.

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09-01-2013 04:58 PM  5 years agoPost 322
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Electric motos routinely run in excess of 45,000 rpm and at 120-200 degrees. They bearing last a very long time. I have replace one set of bearings in a Scorpion but that was after three years of use and only because I was replacing the main shaft for a hardened one (befor they were all hardened). I don't oil the bearings, they have not failed me yet.

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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09-01-2013 04:59 PM  5 years agoPost 323
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Scorpion runs hotter by about 20 degrees but also makes more power.

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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09-01-2013 05:02 PM  5 years agoPost 324
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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Ask yourself these 2 questions, what happens to grease the more you heat it up? Which runs hotter, a scorpion motor or a kontronik pyro?
Actually, over lubrication is more destructive to a sealed bearing than under lubrication. Especially grease in a high-speed bearing. Don't ask me why I know this.

As for the scorpion vs Kontronik motor, I have one of both - a 4035-470kv in my electric Whip and a Kontronik Pyro 700-450 still in the can. The Kontronik easily runs as hot as the Scorpion does on the bench. The Scorpion is also smoother, even after a factory rebuild of my Pyro for the same problem (it was _really_ buzzy when new). Otherwise I'd probably have put it in my trex to see how it performs. I've been extremely underwhelmed by Kontronik equipment to tell the honest truth about it. The cheaper stuff is better and, well, cheaper.

LS

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09-01-2013 05:58 PM  5 years agoPost 325
marcw

rrApprentice

Southern California

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Nitro IMHO is unquestionably dying. There are and will probably always be holdouts and exceptions.

Heck, there is a guy at our field who still flys 72 MHZ! He can buy all the equipment he wants dirt cheap, there is no interference, and no pins or flags to deal with any more!!

I agree the smell / sound of Nitro is cool and will probably always have at least one of them to be able to run every now and again.

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09-01-2013 06:09 PM  5 years agoPost 326
Flys4Fun

rrApprentice

new mexico

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there is a universe of difference versus someone flying on 72mhz which is just a signal, and someone who prefers the sound, smell and tuning of nitro engines. is someone just holding out for nostalgia sake for prefering nitro over electric? So since quads are available, are those flying rc helis still just holding out? last i checked, a pilots skill was in his hands and flying time. To date, the best flights I have ever seen has been with a flybar and nitro. Its like cars, some like 4 bangers, some like big blocks, is one superior than the other, no, they have different characteristics and appeal differently to different people. the day without choices will be a bland one.

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09-01-2013 06:47 PM  5 years agoPost 327
Rodney Kirstine

rrApprentice

Caldwell, ID - USA

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I keep hearing, to the tune of Tenacious D "The Metal"...

"You can't kill the nitro... the nitro will live on. Electrics tried to kill the nitro... but they failed as they were smite to the ground."

Rodney
Team Synergy Field Rep, Rail Blades

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09-01-2013 06:49 PM  5 years agoPost 328
McKrackin

rrProfessor

Lucasville,Ohio

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I think nitro is actually on an upswing at the moment anyway.

The biggest thing that worked against it was misinformation.
The masses of people buying into the hobby with the cheap RTF electric helis now everywhere...then old timers who never experienced a modern nitro engine telling the newbies what an enormous hassle nitro is...then nitro users who only have experience with ground bound RC and planks spouting on about how hard it is to tune an engine.

The vast majority of electric only users have never even tried a nice modern nitro heli.

You can see the trend now...people are taking notice of nitro and it is making a comeback...comeback may be the wrong word....It has always been selling just fine...there are more electrics being sold because there are more helis being sold and more of them are electric now.
The nitro crowd's numbers have never fallen off as bad as people like to claim....a little maybe but it will(and is)swing the other way.

Manufacturers of the Whiplash say the nitro Whiplash still outsells the electric Whiplash by double.

The Nitro Mostro...the N7 and a few other new nitro models are going to change things.

Of all the people I know of that have pre-ordered a Mostro,most have ordered the nitro version.

I literally never use the word literally right.

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09-01-2013 07:04 PM  5 years agoPost 329
lsnover

rrVeteran

Lehigh Valley, PA

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Nitro is down, but certainly not out. I believe it will continue, but it will be a small part of the market vs. electric. Gas engines and electric motors and batteries are all advancing and dropping in price. Nitro fuel is getting exorbitant.

I love electric, but I will always have a few nitro planks and helis. I just love flying a Nitro aircraft and tinkering with the motors. But like non ARF kits, are numbers are dwindling.

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09-01-2013 07:08 PM  5 years agoPost 330
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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I don't think they are a pain to tune necessarily, it is just that you HAVE to tune it with every atmospheric change to get good performance. Gets annoying when you go to fly and the motor will not perform until it gets to temp AND the needle is just right. Of course that lasts for a few hours until the sun comes out or goes in

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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09-01-2013 07:15 PM  5 years agoPost 331
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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It might also be more of a US thing also, because of fuel availability and just tradition. We pay a fortune for fuel here, but even at that it's a fraction of the price here that it is abroad. And higher nitro content fuels aren't even available in some places.

So that's part of why many foreign manufacturers like Mikado and the Goblin, etc., don't even have nitro versions of their helis. Align is an exception, but that's probably partly because of their market share here in the US.

Also, nitro has a decades long history here from the plank world and in the Good Old Days of helis, nitro or gas was practically your only choice.

That may be why US mans like Avant and Miniature have nitro versions of even their high end machines. They may still lag behind the electrics but not a whole lot.

LS

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09-01-2013 07:27 PM  5 years agoPost 332
shinysideUP

rrApprentice

USA NJ, NY

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At $530 for a Pyro...only the elite few will ever know.
For me Xera motors are affordable and monumentally reliable, runs cool and produce biblical power.

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09-01-2013 07:49 PM  5 years agoPost 333
McKrackin

rrProfessor

Lucasville,Ohio

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I don't think they are a pain to tune necessarily, it is just that you HAVE to tune it with every atmospheric change to get good performance. Gets annoying when you go to fly and the motor will not perform until it gets to temp AND the needle is just right. Of course that lasts for a few hours until the sun comes out or goes in
Just not true...the sun has nothing to do with it and a well tuned engine runs great within about a 50 degree temperature swing.
And the engine is at operating temperature in about 7 or 8 seconds...usually a couple seconds after idle up is hit.

Tune it in the Spring...run it all Summer and then a few clicks in late Fall...rinse and repeat.

Your experience is odd for some reason or you're one of those guys that tweak on needles for no reason looking for something that is not there.

Obviously you made the right choice to go all electric

I literally never use the word literally right.

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09-01-2013 07:56 PM  5 years agoPost 334
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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No, I live in Florida, land of wide spread atmospheric changes. I have yet to see a nitro guy here or at IRCHA not tune a nitro motor sometime before, during, or after a flight. If they were that easy to tune and had the same consistent power all the time, there would not be a "is nitro dying" thread
You cannot tell me that there are not some days where your motor runs just a little better than other days

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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09-01-2013 07:59 PM  5 years agoPost 335
McKrackin

rrProfessor

Lucasville,Ohio

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The guys at IRCHA are possibly 1000's of miles from home and 1000's of feet outside their normal elevation...Not the norm...think about it.

The guys tweaking needles at the flying field are just trying to look like they know what they're doing or just can't be satisfied with good enough.

Those guys don't belong in the nitro hobby.lol..
Electric is better for them.

I go months and months and months without tuning unless something breaks.

Yes,there are days mine runs a smidge better.
That doesn't mean I will change anything the next day...I'm just happy with that unusually good day.

I literally never use the word literally right.

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09-01-2013 08:12 PM  5 years agoPost 336
Flys4Fun

rrApprentice

new mexico

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i used to set up,a small micro servo attached to my high speed needle and would be able to make small adjustments from radio while in flight, saved a lot of time and i always could get my engine run top in just a few climbouts. I remeber back in the day early 00's when os came out with a Fuel injected electronic engine using a head unit similar to their gy gyros and gv1. i honestly thought that fuel injected electronically tuned engines was going to be the thing later on in the decade, very consistent power from start to finish and from day to day.

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09-01-2013 08:13 PM  5 years agoPost 337
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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So you are ok with inconsistency, well I am not. Nitro is probably a better choice for you then That sag in motor performance affects the tail and the whole Heli.

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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09-01-2013 08:49 PM  5 years agoPost 338
McKrackin

rrProfessor

Lucasville,Ohio

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There's no sag if it's tuned right. Period.
And it doesn't need to be changed from hour to hour or day to day or even month to month...not HERE anyway.

If it loses so much power that it effects the tail in just a single days time...there is something else wrong....fix it.

Mine has been giving me fits for a few days...sure.
Inconsistent temperatures and such.

The clutch has been grabby a little sometimes while starting it but only when it's hot.

I pulled the engine and this explains sooooooo much.
Weird because it was flying good like this...As long as the shoe stays in there,it still does its job.lol....

Thing is...now I GET to lounge around and tinker with my tools and maybe drink a few cold beers....Boy that sucks.lol...

I literally never use the word literally right.

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09-01-2013 10:17 PM  5 years agoPost 339
unclejane

rrElite Veteran

santa fe, NM, USA

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You cannot tell me that there are not some days where your motor runs just a little better than other days
That's quite true and one of the more well-known drawbacks of the IC engine in general.

However, a 2-stroke engine isn't supposed to be tuned for maximum power at _any_ time, except for perhaps racing situations where the longevity of the engine is a low priority.

Instead, the high speed mixture is supposed to set on what Clarence Lee used to call "the knee" - that point in the mixture/power curve where the power output increase with leaner mixtures just starts to level off. This is significantly richer than the max power mixture and is the best compromise in terms of power output, cooling and engine longevity.

The other benefit of this setting is the margin it gives you for varying atmospheric conditions, particularly in the lean direction. Eg. if it's particularly cool and dry that day, the mixture won't get overly lean. And if it's warmer and more humid, it won't get too excessively rich.

On my full scale 2-strokes years ago (gassers), I rejetted only I think twice a year. I went up one size when the weather got cooler, IIRC, and that was all I had to do. Because the mixture was in the region of the knee the way they were jetted from the factory.

Same with our nitros, if you're constantly out there chasing the needle, you're probably trying to keep it at the max power setting. This is ok if that's what you really need from the motor and don't care much about how long it lasts. But for the rest of us who aren't rich, we need em to last a while so we compromise on the mixture and set it on the knee or somewhere in that range. When set there, you rarely have to fiddle with it unless you change altitude or region where you fly.

the knee is hard to find even experimentally in a heli, but a rough approximation for me is just where it starts to 2-stroke + about 3 clicks or so leaner on the needle. That's at full power and similarly in the hover.

Unfortunately, where I live even with both needles fully closed on my 105, I'm still too rich in the summer and just have to live with a burbling motor all the time. In the winter it leans out and runs smoother tho.

LS

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09-01-2013 10:24 PM  5 years agoPost 340
jespicer1

rrApprentice

memphis, tn

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I went flying today. I put the first 2 flights on my new X3. While charging , my charger decided to shoot flames. Luckily I got the thing unplugged before it ruined a brand new pulse pack.

So after that I pulled the old TRUSTY Vibe 50 out and flew 4 10 minute flights.

Long live the nitro!
I know I will always heve room for the slimers in my fleet.

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