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HomeAircraftHelicopterHelicopter Main Discussion › MA Whippy Limped Home - Possible ESC Thermal Shutdown?
07-14-2013 09:54 PM  5 years agoPost 1
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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Looks like I possibly had an ESC thermal shutdown on the Whippy today.

I have the Kontronik Heli Jive (with heat sink) and a Scorpion 4525-520kv motor.

So I didn't have a forced auto like with the Align motor, but the rpm suddenly died late into flights #2 and 3 and I had to limp home.

I read the temps. Motor was OK at 120 to 130 deg. ESC was at 155 near the capacitors. Is that hot enough to cause a thermal shutdown?

Basically I was 4 or 5 minutes into the flight, when suddenly power went way down. Did not shut down completely, but I had to limp it home like it was in "normal" mode.

Does that sound like a thermal shutdown?

Shouldn't this ridiculously expensive ESC be able to keep up with this motor in this bird???

Right now I am not too impressed with the Kontronik ESC....

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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07-14-2013 10:03 PM  5 years agoPost 2
classic

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All over the place!

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Be happy it didnt burst into flames and crash your heli like another certain esc brand has a reputation of doing!

Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care!

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07-14-2013 10:05 PM  5 years agoPost 3
sonnyhad

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Holland,Mi

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Probably was your low voltage cut off, with that much time in the air and ambient temperatures.

Bald Pilots usually wear hats!

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07-14-2013 10:13 PM  5 years agoPost 4
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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Don't think it was low voltage cutoff. Batteries were at 3.7xx volts per cell still.

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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07-14-2013 11:01 PM  5 years agoPost 5
fenderstrat

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Aston,Pa

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yes but in flight if the LVC is set to "high" a hard manuver at the end of a flight can cause a pretty good Voltage sag.It all depends on what the particular V cutoff point is and where the ESC is set.

If the batts are at 3.7 resting after a flight,they could have easily dipped under 3V

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07-14-2013 11:06 PM  5 years agoPost 6
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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That expensive esc protected itself and your model instead of just shutting down or burning up. It was thinking way ahead of you and dealing with what it perceived to be an unacceptable situation rather than just continue to run under adverse cicumstances.
Which firmware version is in the esc? All connectors of high quality with similarly good soldering work?

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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07-14-2013 11:10 PM  5 years agoPost 7
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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You need to run the Jive in KSA mode with that motor.

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07-15-2013 01:37 AM  5 years agoPost 8
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Just between you, me and the fencepost, I have a Scorpion 4035-450KV in my Whippy and, on 12s, that thing is just absolutely violent. I don't want to go within 100 feet of that thing with both flight packs in it when it's spinning up. And that's one of Scorpion's wussy motors lol.

Your 4525 is even more hideously powerful so, yeah, I agree with the other guys that it's probably a LV shutdown just from sheer load on the batts. I wouldn't worry about it too much, just don't run the batts down that far (maybe take a minute or two off your flight time?).

LS

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07-15-2013 03:15 AM  5 years agoPost 9
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Did some checking.

Per the manual,default in the general Jive series is HARD cutoff for LV. In the HJ it is SOFT cutoff.

Whether it was from a pack going too low under heavy load or something otherwise restriction flow of current, this looks suspiciously like a LV power back. As noted, 3.7 resting post flight could easily be pushed much lower in flight. It just depends on the packs.

Ben Minor

Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA

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07-15-2013 05:53 PM  5 years agoPost 10
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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Hi Ben Minor

So you think it was a low voltage cutoff and not a thermal shutdown?

Can I set the low voltage cutoff point just a bit lower so it doesn't see this "spike" and shut down???

Thanks.

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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07-15-2013 06:46 PM  5 years agoPost 11
Rockohaulic

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UPDATE

I just checked the batteries from Flight #3 (the last flight that I had the power decrease), and the voltage on all cells of both batteries was 3.8xx.

So this flight seemed to cut out earlier than the first shut down.

At 3.8xx, does this seem like it could dip low enough for a Low Voltage cutoff?

Thanks guys!

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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07-15-2013 06:48 PM  5 years agoPost 12
JKos

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Redondo Beach, CA

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Maybe you should get one of the cell monitors with logging so you can really see what's going on with the bats. Or, start with recording your total pack voltage.

- John

RR rules!

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07-16-2013 02:20 AM  5 years agoPost 13
fenderstrat

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Aston,Pa

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Can I set the low voltage cutoff point just a bit lower so it doesn't see this "spike" and shut down???
most likely you can.What are the exact choices for LVC on that particular ESC?

On some ESC's you can set it a "disabled" setting.This is cool for avoiding situations like this and getting slightly more flight time,but you MUST be on point with the timer

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07-16-2013 02:21 AM  5 years agoPost 14
heliaddict2424rrApprentice - SCV SoCal. - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

You need to run the Jive in KSA mode with that motor.
1st
You do not need to run KSA mode on the 4525 Ultimate, on the old 4525 yes you do.

2nd
How many light flashes did you get on the Jive?

Team MikadoUSA Team Scorpion

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07-16-2013 03:21 AM  5 years agoPost 15
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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2nd
How many light flashes did you get on the Jive?
Unfortunately my led is impossible to read in daylight for some reason.

I can read Randy's, it is much brighter. I can only read mine indoors.

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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07-16-2013 03:25 AM  5 years agoPost 16
heliaddict2424

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SCV SoCal.

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I would guess overtemp (3 flashes or continouse flash) considering how hot it was out here. I run gigantic cpu heat sink with fan on top in my Diabolo with 4525 and have no issues, but I have really good cooling. I had same setup in my TDR and I would still get thermal shutdowns unless I ran toppless. Jive 120hv is on the ragged edge of being to small for a 700. This is why Mikado choose to go with YGE 160hv and 4525 becouse
Kyle proved the Jive was not up to the task. That being said it will work but don't be surprised if you run into things like this. YGE 160hv gives that extra room you need and motor runs better with noticeable power difference at least with vbar gov.

Team MikadoUSA Team Scorpion

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07-16-2013 05:39 AM  5 years agoPost 17
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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You do not need to run KSA mode on the 4525 Ultimate, on the old 4525 yes you do.
The 4525-520LE definitely requires KSA mode, while the 4525-520 Ultimate does not seem as sensitive to a commutation failure. However the engineers at Kontronik have told me that because of the large low resistance windings on all of the 45XX series Scorpion motors, it is very difficult for any ESC to properly "sense" the location of the stators, and therefore running KSA mode with any of the 45XX series Scorpion motors is probably a good idea to prevent a commutation failure which has the potential to completely destroy the Jive series of ESC.

Avant RC
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07-16-2013 12:13 PM  5 years agoPost 18
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Isn't the Over Amp a soft cutoff as well??

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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07-17-2013 07:46 AM  5 years agoPost 19
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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I just read through the owners manual, and it could have been either an over-temp or an undervoltage.

But, as I’ve said before, I have to say that the owners manual SUX!

Anyway, on page 14 in section 4.4, it reads "It slows the motor down if the battery pack is on low capacity (2.8-3.2V/cell for LiPo 2.0V for LiFePo). The motor can be switched on again, by pulling the throttle into motor-off position and then pushing it forward again."

Then immediately there is a big exclamation point, and in bold it says, “As soon as the selected under voltage level is reached the Heli Jive starts slowing the motor down. No further operation possible until new battery is connected.”

So it contradicts itself. Which is it??? Can you throttle down and then throttle back up again or not???

Well, I believe that the final answer is on page 16 under section 7.4. My ESC is programmed to Heli Mode (Mode 4). The manual reads, “The following protection functions are active in Heli Mode:
- At excess temperature, the ESC lowers the power slowly (30 seconds) to zero.
- At under voltage cut-off the ESC lowers the power slowly (30 seconds) to zero. No further operation possible until new battery is connected.”

So it could have been either. But logic dictates that it was an over-temp based on the 101 degrees ambient temperature.

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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07-28-2013 02:24 AM  5 years agoPost 20
Rockohaulic

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Canyon Country, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

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Issue went away last weekend - then Issue returned with a vengeance today. Arghhhhh

I went from the 14T pinion to the 13T pinion and bumped up my throttle curves. I also cut a hole in the nose of the canopy right in front of the ESC to get fresh air over the ESC in flight.

LAST WEEKEND
So last weekend was 95 deg. I flew the heck out of the bird to try to get it to over temp or over current. Got 4 very successful flights on it. When I had the issue and the ESC slowed things down forcing me to limp home a couple weeks ago, the temp at the caps on the ESC was 155. Last weekend with the mods the highest I saw was 122. And like I said, it flew beautifully.

I thought my issue was resolved!

TODAY
Today felt much cooler, but was around 90 deg. First flight was a complete success, with the ESC temp at 122.

Then suddenly in the middle of flight 2 the ESC did its thing, and I did not have the time or room to limp it home. It went over the cliff that we fly at, and all I could do was hit throttle hold as it went out of sight.

You can't imagine my frustration level as I helplessly watched my Whippy disappear over the edge of the cliff.

Anyway, damage was minimal. I've heard that this ESC is on the ragged edge of being too small for a 700. I'm starting to believe that!!!

I think I'm going to go to a YGE 160.

Saturday morning I flew my helicopter in my pajamas
How it got in my pajamas I'll never know

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