RunRyder RC
WATCH
 1 page 1878 views POST REPLY
06-02-2013 11:26 PM  5 years agoPost 1
heliayto

rrNovice

solihull, uk

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

First start-up on receiving engine back from JetCat, had a small fire on start-up and need help please.

LAST-OFF TEMP 614
LAST-OFF PmpVolt 0.55

Pump volt seems a little high. The manual talks about 0.1 - 0.325 as being the normal pump voltage for start.

Anyway, might be missing something but can't seem to find the menu route in the manual to adjust it.

Additionally, don't know if it's connected, on start at low rpm the engine has a tinkling sound. I know our larger brethrens in the full size aircraft have non-fixed turbine blades which tinkle (forget the technical term for this), not certain if the models exhibit the same properties. Any thoughts?

Any suggestions for a repair of the fuselage???? Thanks

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-02-2013 11:52 PM  5 years agoPost 2
airplanejunkie

rrApprentice

Riverview, Mi.

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Holy SMOKES!
Can you determine if and the location of the fuel leak? It appears in the picture not from the exhaust flames. What engine? Dave George Detroit Mi.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-03-2013 10:23 PM  5 years agoPost 3
heliayto

rrNovice

solihull, uk

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

No fuel leaks. Engines a JetCat PHT3.

Surprised me, it had a heat shield above the exhaust which partially burnt through, and the fuselage inside burnt where the areas where smothered in two types of high temperature heat resistant paint including ceramic paint.

I'm going to have to re-think this area when I rebuild it, just not up to the job if there's a high EGT/TOT on start.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-04-2013 02:24 PM  5 years agoPost 4
Notar

rrKey Veteran

Taxachussetts

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Bottom of page 12 and then pag 13.
http://www.jetcatusa.com/PDFFiles/I...al%20V6.0J2.pdf

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-08-2013 12:57 PM  5 years agoPost 5
Turbinator

rrApprentice

Nanticoke, PA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Did you have a failed start attempt or engine take a long time to fire up on start up? Are you using kero start system? What type of battery are you using?

I had a fire inside my ec135 once, extihguished in seconds with a small water spray bottle, a CO2 extinguisher was handy but did not even have to use it becasue if was caught quick before if could build. I swicthed back to propane start and never had a hot start on either of my 2 turbines since (they look cool though!!), I have 3 kero start plugs/kits just sitting in a drawer now. The little bit of pain of the propane I find much easier to deal with then the pain of a fire!!

Kero start is great but it takes allot of power and needs a battery capable of supplying lots of current, at least the genration of the ones I have do. I use a 5000 mah 2 cell 30c lipo and it worked good but would only get 3-4 good starts on one charge on kero start and then risk another type of fire should you over discharge it during cool down or some thing, propane start get 10+ and probably 5 more left and never hear slow cool down spinning due to a weak battery at end of flight. Just my 2 cents.

Looks like you had a very nice detailed fuse ready for paint, sucks to see it almost ruined from a fire, just think if all the caps were on and you could not see the fire or get at it to extinguish it quick because of limited access, no heat shield will stop the fire, it could have been a total loss, mechanics and all, why I went back to propane start, its easy to clear the fuse and turbine of propane if you have a failed start, doing such with kero is not that easy, not in my 135 at least, you almost have to take the mechs out to get it all out.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-08-2013 01:23 PM  5 years agoPost 6
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Question
heliayto, I have only lost one turbine heli because of a crash with full tank, at take off
Not a good feeling even when the extinguishers have done there work, and all that is left is scorched and blackened

Question Was the turbine running when the fire started?
Peter R

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-08-2013 01:44 PM  5 years agoPost 7
Turbinator

rrApprentice

Nanticoke, PA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

PS, my turbines make that "tinkling" sound too if what you refering to is small little sounds, pops and crinkles like heard when crushing a soda can slowly, especially the 135 with the triple wall pipe. It is most likly from the exhaust pipe from heat and thermal expansion happening so quick from the hot exhaust gases. From your first post to me it sounds like this fire occured on a start up not after a flight or ground run correct? It is a fuel fire for sure, even if the pump were running a bit fast when runing the fuel would have still been burnt and just make flames out the exhaust, if no fuel leaks in the tubing anywhere the fuel that casued the fire had to come from excess fuel deposted on start up that lit from the radiant heat of the exhaust pipe once it got real hot near at the back/bottom of the turbine exhaut end bend, probably laying in the bottom of the fuse where it could not be seen. I had this happen more then once in my 135, only one time large enough to have to extinguish it, all others just blew it out frantically with my lungs. My opinion its coming from start up, drove me nuts for a long time, nuts enough to switch back to propane start, it would do it and not do it, depending on how the start up went, switching to the large lipo helped with the kero start system but still left worry in the back of my mind once all the covers were put on how I would put such out "if" it ever happend again, I don't know about you but having "ifs" on the back of my mind with so much money and time on the line does not work for me. If I were to do kero start again in my 135 I would have to make the back clam shell doors functional so the area could be monitored and a place to point the extinguisher to/in when it did do it again becasue in my experience with kero start its going to happen again.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-10-2013 09:53 PM  5 years agoPost 8
heliayto

rrNovice

solihull, uk

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Further information to my original post, I'm running a kero start with 5000mAh Ni-Mh batteries which were fully charged.

Strange thing large flame emitted from the number 2 exhaust efflux none from the number 1, yet it was the number 1 exhaust area which caught fire. Appreciate number 1 and 2 are one and the same, still interesting though!

I am thinking of making a composite sandwich with fire proof material on the rebuild as per the full size. May even make the exhaust cowlings removable.

Annoying thing is I was going to test fly it that day prior to it going into the spray booth.

For ones information the engine spooled up, started, stabilised then caught fire, at which point I shut down and grabbed the CO2.
I can only surmise it was the radiant heat from the high TOT. Bottom of the fuselage has 2 drain holes for any excess fuel spillage and non was detected.

Turbinator, yes the thought if this happening again once painted and with all the cowls on does not bare thinking about. So I am scratching my head for a resolution.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-10-2013 11:24 PM  5 years agoPost 9
Turbinator

rrApprentice

Nanticoke, PA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

If I were you and was going to stay with the kero start setup I'd switch to a 2 cell 4-5000 mah 25-30c or better lipo from the Ni-Mh or Ni-cad. Hook up your GSU and watch the voltage on a kero start startup, it most likely drops, use a lipo and then watch the same, little to no volatge drop, you can even hear the turbine spinning faster using the lipo, on start up and cool down, on my setup at least this has been my experience. I tried using the largest mah nicad and ni-mh I could find and found the voltage would still drop and get some flames on start up once in a while, even put 2 in parallel, that was better but with the lipo even kerostart worked for me but I still went to propane start, just couldn't risk a hot start, never any flames out the pipe on propane starts. That is what I think you encountered even though no fuel came out the bottom fuse drain holes, a wet start to where some fuel escaped through small voids in the pipe and burned on the out side of the pipe too. What brand exhaust pipe are you using? PLus the lipo is half or less the weight as the large mah ni-mh pack I tried was like lead bars, very heavy.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-11-2013 12:29 AM  5 years agoPost 10
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Wet start
heliayto, So you had a wet start, shut down and grabbed the CO2, I have written elsewhere, let the turbine run
How far away was your fire extinguisher?,
That fire had to burn for a while to cause that much damage
If your experience was happening a lot, then there would have been more reports about them,
I have had 2 of this model one is still flying in Belgium, 12 years old, the other in the attic, 8 years old, so apart from your particular experience, they do last a long time
We are all smarter in hindsight, but I do not think going to all the mods you are thinking of,is going to stop any on board fire
Better to get your combustion correct, and update your fire fighting technique
Peter R

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-11-2013 11:24 AM  5 years agoPost 11
heliayto

rrNovice

solihull, uk

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

To my mind it is not a case of stopping the fire, anything will ultimately catch fire given a high enough temperature. I want to be able to contain excessive heat on start-up.

The full size is designed to take momentary heat excursions of 985c. You wouldn't design an aircraft which could take less than that, hope for the best and except the possible consequences.

If I can replicate that then all the better. I just do not want to spend a small fortune on a paint job and run the risk of another fire. Granted running a turbine has inherent risks.

PETER Valid point, yes I do plan to get the start-up process sorted out which includes looking into a Li-po conversion and even going back to a propane start.

As for updating my fire fighting techniques, I'll blow harder next time.

Thanks for all your input, appreciated.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-11-2013 11:45 AM  5 years agoPost 12
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I'll blow harder next time.
So did I the first time, also burnt my hands
Steep learning curve
Peter R

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-11-2013 11:56 AM  5 years agoPost 13
modtron

rrKey Veteran

Oxford. UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Everything being suggested here at the momeny is pure speculation.
The EC135 in question from Heliayto will be addressed this coming weekend when we get together to sort out what is going on.

The cause "could" be one of many settings or even something extreamly simple, but until I get to see it - know one knows.

As soon as it's all sorted, I will post the results for all to see.

modtron
Oxford UK

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-12-2013 01:54 AM  5 years agoPost 14
Turbinator

rrApprentice

Nanticoke, PA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

A 2 cell 4-5000 mah 25c lipo will cost you 50 bucks max, a "conversion" is not needed, just a normal lipo and set your ECU for it, its right in the setup menus a choice for such. Most likley it will solve your problem and stay with the kero start system. I fiddled with all kinds of settings with the assistance of Jetcat USA, they even supplied me a new upgraded to new style plug at no charge. (PS, I NEVER had an issue with the original plug but they did not have a long life and when they were gone they were gone, the problems started after having to buy one of the newer varieties, this is years back, maybe 1-2 generations of plugs ago) But Even After tweaking with jetcats suggestions most starts were "pretty" normal but once in a while a bit of flames out the pipes on a start up, most times would be the second or third start on a battery pack (a lipo), (looks cool to spectators) and I NEVER had a hot start fire in the fuse after switching to a lipo even on the kero system but it was my personal choice to go to propane start. I'm told its easier on the turbine, the ecu, and one battery and fill of propane gives me 5, 6, 7 starts, usually more then I want to fly in one day, even though I have a second pack handy and at times switch to it just to discharge it before putting the bird away. I'm sure many can post problems with propane too, personally I have never had one but can think of a few "what ifs".

I don't think insulation is the way to go, it may help with a small fire but if things start to burn, fanned by the flames of the turbine runing or even in cool down mode it is going to burn until the fuel that is burning is gone, period, or extinguished some how, the insulation may just make it harder to get to to do so. I see the guys over the pond there were you are are going to give you a hand personally, GREAT, I'm not trying to step on their toes here, just my story and 2 cents of my long road to success with my EC135, to say it was not a smooth one would be saying it VERY lightly but once perfected its now heaven. I even have a smoke system on mine to warn of low battery, low fuel, (never happens but there) and the best to simulate an engine failure or some sort of bad news which always gives spectators some thing to get them on their feet and grab their attention!! Fooled ya!!!! Only problem with mine is 3-4 years later and its still not painted Hope you get it sorted and painted and it lasts forever for you!! Good luck

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-12-2013 09:46 AM  5 years agoPost 15
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

FYI, LiPo battery
Turbinator, JetCat Germany now supply a LiPo battery as standard, although the provision for NmHi batteries is still in the ECU menu

Mark1 kero plug. These did have a short live span, but when returned to JetCat, they were exchanged (in fairness),
After seeing a kero plug go down at a Vario meet,6 years ago, I now carry a new spare in my flight case
Peter R

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-15-2013 08:57 PM  5 years agoPost 16
heliayto

rrNovice

solihull, uk

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Had Modtron check over the model today, worked his magic and it's working an absolute treat now. The exhaust did glow to an alarming BRIGHT red at one stage, felt I was going to loose my eyebrows

Few mods he has recommended which I will be carrying out in due course.

I'll be sticking with the Ni-Cd/Ni-Mh as they are my preferred battery of choice. As a power source to driving the main rotors of other helicopters I can see their value, but call me old fashioned I still prefer Ni-Cd & Ni-Mh.

Thoroughly nice chap, very knowledgeable, and happy to share his knowledge.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-15-2013 09:25 PM  5 years agoPost 17
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

worked his magic
So what was altered?
Peter R

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-15-2013 09:30 PM  5 years agoPost 18
modtron

rrKey Veteran

Oxford. UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

So for those interest, this is what was found out .....

Upon checking the ECU data, the exhaust temps at start were up in the mid 600's - not to bad but could be better.
Checked the pump settings and I was able to reduce the level a little as a strong stream of fuel was originally coming out when the fuel line was disconnected from the engine.

So, now a start....
First thing noticed was that the Bendix was not throwing out properly as it was sticking on the shaft. This is easily fixed with a few drops of Tri-Flow or similar oil for a one time lubrication.

The first start was spectacular with flames out of the exhaust and 600 temps again, bright red exhaust followed by the signs of flames inside again ?
Shut down and cooled and ready for another look !

All was looking ok but what was it that was burning ????

So here's a point to remember .....
The heat proof matting that had been installed was doing its job ok BUT, the burn marks were found to be on this material - so why ?
I tried some spare material with a small blow torch and it took the flame without any problem.
BUT the frayed edges had been sealed with cyno.
So when I tried the blow torch on the edges, it started to burn straight away and the spread into the matting !
The material was touching against the exhaust, and during the extream temps and glowing exhaust, the material itself was catching on fire.

The material was removed and any loose remaing pieces were wired up out of the way with clearance all around the tubes.

Next start still had flames but much less and no glowing exhaust - but no internal fire.

After another check of all data and a lull in the rain, a third start was undertaken.
This time ALL was back to normal - no glowing tubes, no flames and start temps now in the mid 400's.

So after all that - it was nothing to do with battery type selection.
If anything it was initially due to too much fuel in the combustion chamber which needed to be burned off and hence the wet starts.
But doing that was setting the heat blanket on fire !

So there you have it. Charles is now a happy man and the turbine is doing exactly what it should.

We did come across a few mechanical issues to do the the general set up of the machine which will be addressed at the same time as the repair to the body shell, which is not that bad, just looks nasty.
Once these items are done, well get together again and get it airbourne.

modtron
Oxford UK

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-15-2013 09:36 PM  5 years agoPost 19
PETER ROB

rrElite Veteran

Devon UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Nigel, Thanks for the update, may stop some one else having a similar problem
Peter R

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-16-2013 09:09 AM  5 years agoPost 20
modtron

rrKey Veteran

Oxford. UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Still try to give details of what was going on - I have been asked "why did the exhaust glow bright red ?"

Well, simple answer is un-burnt fuel.

Under normal running the exhaust is purely very hot air traveling through the pipes, but on this instance it was being mixed with a lot of un-burnt fuel that was being forced around the inside of the pipe while being thrust backwards - and hence the glowing pipe.

Why only on one side ?

Again, with the spinning action of the turbine wheel, the exhaust comes out in a spiral column and was being forced up the left hand side tube and the right hand side was just hot air.

To see this yourself, try using a blow torch into the end of a stainless exhaust tube. With the flame centered and not touching the sides you will not see any glowing of the tube.
But now introduce some contact of the flame to the side wall and it will glow - even worse when you add some fuel to make it spread.

On the final run, after all of the excess fuel had been burnt off, the exhaust acted as normal with no glowing at any stage.

modtron
Oxford UK

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 1 page 1878 views POST REPLY
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 6  Topic Subscribe

Friday, August 17 - 1:07 am - Copyright © 2000-2018 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online