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05-30-2013 08:35 PM  5 years agoPost 81
helimatt

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None of the NT authors were eyewitnesses to anything, and were not traditional Jews from Galilee where jesus taught and lived.- outhouse
No possibly they weren't; However, what is true is that the writers had contact with, and likely interviewed many eyewitnesses. They recorded the events and historical facts accurately (Luke's writings in Acts and his gospel particularly contain a wealth of historical facts, and observations fully consistent with the people, places and times, such that we can consider his accounts as reliable). Evidence continues to be found that support, rather than refutes, the records in the Gospels and the book of Acts.

There was not enough time between the events around Jesus' life and death (and resurrection) and commencing the written accounts to develop mythology or legend outside of truthful reporting. If fabrications or serious imbellishments were attempted, numerous eyewitnesses were there to refute. And to do so would be COMPLETELY out of character and out of ingrained methods of Jewish scribes and historians.

Based on your reasoning; Since I don't come from Massachusettes, and was not born before 1963, I could not possibly write a reliable biography John F. Kennedy.

And so there would be NO POINT at all to anyone continuing to write about historical events beyond their immediate experiences and lifetime. You'd agree that this is ridiculous. We should not treat the new testament writings any differently for those reasons.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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05-30-2013 09:50 PM  5 years agoPost 82
outhouse

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what is true is that the writers had contact with, and likely interviewed many eyewitnesses.
Doubtful

Written decades later in a different geographic area from the small original movement

Jesus was not famous while alive. he was made famous during the passover and death and spritual resurrection.

He did not teach in large Hellenistic cities, he only taught in small poor Jewish villages which were not heavily populated. Its why we dont have a single historian writing about him wile he was alive.

What they used for sources was cross cultural oral tradition, and pre existing written sources that are long gone.
Evidence continues to be found that support, rather than refutes, the records in the Gospels and the book of Acts
Boloney

Acts has never been used as a reliable historical account.
If fabrications or serious imbellishments were attempted, numerous eyewitnesses were there to refute.
Not true.

The books were written by Hellenistic Jewish Proselytes and Gentiles who didnt live anywhere near Galilee.

They were not written by Traditional Israelite Jews from Galilee.

Gmark was written for Romans probably in Syria, and it clearly explains non Jewish laws for the Gentile audience it was inteneded for.

Written in Greek, not the Hebrew or Aramaic a witness would have used
Based on your reasoning; Since I don't come from Massachusettes, and was not born before 1963, I could not possibly write a reliable biography John F. Kennedy.
That is not what im stating. They didnt create a deity out of kennedy.

Jesus was not famous nation wide. While alive he was not famous or well known. John The Baptist was more well known then Jesus while alive, its why he was beheaded by Herod. Jesus only found fame after death.
And so there would be NO POINT at all to anyone continuing to write about historical events beyond their immediate experiences and lifetime.
Im not stating he isnt histoircal or didnt exist.

I am stating we have to study what is written about him carefully because these were legends and stories written in mythology and theology, they were never ment as a history book. The accounts contradict each other less the parts they copied each other.

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05-30-2013 09:51 PM  5 years agoPost 83
banshee rider

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The real question is how long is this lab rat experiment
going to last till God or Jesus shows up again

They should have all the info they need by now

On who has been naughty and who has been nice

Oh wait is that a different fairy tale

I get confused

ageing is manditory maturity is optional

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05-30-2013 10:07 PM  5 years agoPost 84
helimatt

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banshee rider- perhaps not long at all. We should consider that very carefully. The result will be either wonderful or terrifying.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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05-30-2013 10:10 PM  5 years agoPost 85
Gearhead

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The real question is how long is this lab rat experiment
going to last till God or Jesus shows up again
They should have all the info they need by now
On who has been naughty and who has been nice
Oh wait is that a different fairy tale
I get confused
ageing is manditory maturity is optional
I guess so !!

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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05-30-2013 10:13 PM  5 years agoPost 86
helimatt

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Boloney

Acts has never been used as a reliable historical account.- outhouse
Nope:

Sir William Ramsay, articles and books, expert historian and archeologist- began hist studies of the NT era and places fully skeptical and expecting quickly to show that the NT is a fabrication. Found the opposite with respect to Luke's writings.

Colin Hemer, "The Book of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History"

outhouse, your views are in the minority, and have been successfully refuted among scholars both religious and secular.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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05-31-2013 12:32 AM  5 years agoPost 87
outhouse

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outhouse, your views are in the minority, and have been successfully refuted among scholars both religious and secular
Lets bnack that with sources.

Like this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...of_the_Apostles

According to the majority viewpoint, Acts described Paul differently from how Paul describes himself, both factually and theologically.[4] Acts differed with Paul's letters on important issues, such as the Law, Paul's own apostleship, and his relation to the Jerusalem church.[5] Scholars generally prefer Paul's account over that in Acts.

majority viewpoint being the key phrase.

Passages of disputed historical accuracy

Acts 5:33-39: Theudas [edit]Main article: Theudas#The Theudas problem
Acts 5:33-39 gives an account of speech by the 1st century Pharisee Gamaliel, in which he refers to two first century movements. One of these was led by Theudas (v 36) and after him another was led by Judas the Galilean (v 37). Josephus placed Judas at the Census of Quirinius of the year 6 and Theudas under the procurator Fadus[27] in 44-46. Assuming Acts refers to the same Theudas as Josephus, two problems emerge. First, the order of Judas and Theudas is reversed in Acts 5. Second, Theudas's movement comes after the time when Gamaliel is speaking.

Acts 2:41 and 4:4 - Peter's addresses [edit]Acts 4:4 speaks of Peter addressing an audience, resulting in the number of Christian converts rising by 5,000 people. Professor of New Testament Robert M. Grant says "Luke evidently regarded himself as a historian, but many questions can be raised in regard to the reliability of his history […] His ‘statistics’ are impossible; Peter could not have addressed three thousand hearers [e.g. in Acts 2:41 without a microphone, and since the population of Jerusalem was about 25-30,000, Christians cannot have numbered five thousand [e.g. Acts 4:4]."[28]

Grant's estimate of the population of Jerusalem relied on an influential study by Jeremias in 1943.[29][30] However, Grant does not mention that Jeremias calculated a far higher population figure for festival seasons such as passover, at which he calculated Jerusalem would contain up to 125,000 pilgrims.[31] Furthermore, the lower estimate of Jeremias is significantly lower than the lowest of the moderate to high estimates made by Wilkinson in 1974 (70,398 under Herod the Great),[32] Broshi in 1976 (60,000),[33] Maier in 1976 (50,000, with three times that many during festival seasons),[34] and Levine in 2002 (60,000-70,000).[35] Accordingly, Cousland notes that "recent estimates of the population of Jerusalem suggest something in the neighbourhood of a hundred thousand".[36]

Estimates for the number of Christians in the Roman empire by the end of the 1st century range widely from 7,500,[37] to more than 50,000.[38][39]

Acts 6:9: The province of Cilicia [edit]Acts 6:9 mentions the Province of Cilicia during a scene allegedly taking place in mid-30s AD. The Roman province by that name had been on hiatus from 27 BC and was re-established by Emperor Vespasian only in 72 AD.[40]

Acts 21:38: The sicarii and the Egyptian [edit]In Acts 21:38, a Roman asks Paul if he was 'the Egyptian' who led a band of 'sicarii' (literally: 'dagger-men' into the desert. In both The Jewish Wars[41] and Antiquities of the Jews,[42] Josephus talks about Jewish nationalist rebels called sicarii directly prior to talking about The Egyptian leading some followers to the Mount of Olives. Richard Pervo believes that this demonstrates that Luke used Josephus as a source and mistakenly thought that the sicarii were followers of The Egyptian.[43][44]

Acts 10:1: Roman troops in Caesarea [edit]Acts 10:1 speaks of a Roman Centurion called Cornelius belonging to the "Italian regiment" and stationed in Caesarea. Robert Grant claims that during the reign of Herod Agrippa, 41-44, no Roman troops were stationed in his territory.[45] Wedderburn likewise finds the narrative "historically suspect",[46] and in view of the lack of inscriptional and literary evidence corroborating Acts, historian de Blois suggests that the unit either did not exist or was a later unit which the author of Acts projected to an earlier time.[47]

Noting that the 'Italian regiment' is generally identified as cohors II Italica civium Romanorum, a unit whose presence in Judea is attested no earlier than 69 CE,[48] historian E Mary Smallwood observes that the events described from Acts 9:32 to chapter 11 may not be in chronological order with the rest of the chapter but actually take place after Agrippa's death in chapter 12, and that the "Italian regiment" may have been introduced to Caesarea as early as 44 CE.[49] Wedderburn notes this suggestion of chronological re-arrangement, along with the suggestion that Cornelius lived in Caesarea away from his unit.[50] Historians such as Bond,[51] Speidel,[52] and Saddington,[53] see no difficulty in the record of Acts 10:1.

Acts 15: The Council of Jerusalem [edit]Main article: Council of Jerusalem#Historicity
The description of the 'Apostolic Council' in Acts 15, generally considered the same event described in Galatians 2,[54] is considered by some scholars to be contradictory to the Galatians account.[55] The historicity of Luke's account has been challenged,[56][57][58] and was rejected completely by some scholars in the mid to late 20th century.[59] However, more recent scholarship inclines towards treating the Jerusalem Council and its rulings as a historical event,[60] though this is sometimes expressed with caution.[61]

Acts 24: Paul's trial [edit]See also: Paul of Tarsus#Arrest and death
Paul's trial in Acts 24 has been described as 'incoherently presented'.[62][page needed]

Acts 15:16-18: James' speech [edit]In Acts 15:16-18, James, the leader of the Christian Jews in Jerusalem, gives a speech where he quotes scriptures from the Greek Septuagint (Amos 9:11-12). Some[who?] believe this is incongruous with the portrait of James as a Jewish leader who would presumably speak Aramaic, not Greek. A possible explanation is that the Septuagint translation better made James's point about the inclusion of Gentiles as the people of God.[63] Dr. John Barnett stated that "Many of the Jews in Jesus' day used the Septuagint as their Bible".[64] Although Aramaic was a major language of the Ancient Near East, by Jesus's day Greek had been the lingua franca of the area for 300 years. It is also possible that James quoted Amos in Aramaic at the Jerusalem Council, but when Luke wrote it down he used the Septuagint translation since nearly all Christians outside Palestine used it as their bible.[citation needed]

Relationship to the Gospel of Luke [edit]See also: Luke-Acts
Since Acts is generally regarded as a continuation of the Gospel of Luke, problems with the historical reliability of the Gospel are also used to question the historical reliability of Acts.

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05-31-2013 12:35 AM  5 years agoPost 88
Dennis (RIP)

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Wikipedia's Disclaimer:

WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY

Wikipedia is an online open-content collaborative encyclopedia; that is, a voluntary association of individuals and groups working to develop a common resource of human knowledge. The structure of the project allows anyone with an Internet connection to alter its content. Please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by people with the expertise required to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information.

That is not to say that you will not find valuable and accurate information in Wikipedia; much of the time you will. However, Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here. The content of any given article may recently have been changed, vandalized or altered by someone whose opinion does not correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields. Note that most other encyclopedias and reference works also have similar disclaimers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe...eral_disclaimer

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05-31-2013 12:35 AM  5 years agoPost 89
outhouse

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Sir William Ramsey, died in what 1916? and is not a credible "modern" source.

Quite a bit of archeology has been done since then

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05-31-2013 02:40 AM  5 years agoPost 90
GREYEAGLE

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Tell US since you are so deep into the Proof's : What is the Only One ----
That is the unforgivable ? The One - You should know it and where to find it. Why to avoid it ---

Please tell us -----The Unforgivable (ONE) -----

Display it for US : Explain it for US : In your own Expert Exposition :

Many would like to hear it - From You Out house for It explains Every thing Directly - Your Motive: Why the Drive to Your Bent - of your HATE

For their is ONLY ONE Unforgivable

greyeagle

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05-31-2013 02:46 AM  5 years agoPost 91
outhouse

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Can we Pink grey for posting word salad?

And posting uncomprehensible nonsense?

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05-31-2013 03:21 AM  5 years agoPost 92
helimatt

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I mis-spelled his name- Sir William Ramsay. Sorry 'bout that.

Hey, outhouse, keep an open mind and heart, purge yourself of pride, and keep studying. I appreciate your fervor and the chance to discuss these things with you. I've said about all I feel I should for now.

For those interested in a source of scholarly discussion, debates, articles, and further references (one among many):

http://www.reasonablefaith.org

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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05-31-2013 03:38 AM  5 years agoPost 93
outhouse

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I mis-spelled his name- Sir William Ramsay. Sorry 'bout that.

Hey, outhouse, keep an open mind and heart, purge yourself of pride, and keep studying. I appreciate your fervor and the chance to discuss these things with you. I've said about all I feel I should for now.

For those interested in a source of scholarly discussion, debates, articles, and further references (one among many):

http://www.reasonablefaith.org
Thanks bud. Your a heli bud first and formost. I do have a passion for this.

Im already here

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/

and fighting authors and mythers [advanced]

http://www.freeratio.org/forumdisplay.php?f=60

Not for any sort of apologetics, just stating Jesus is historical drives them nuts. Some anti theist too. I try and slap them in line.

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06-01-2013 07:21 AM  5 years agoPost 94
Wave

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Watch at YouTube

Not for any sort of apologetics, just stating Jesus is historical drives them nuts. Some anti theist too. I try and slap them in line.
Jesus was a mushroom.

...tasty.

Outhouse, Your grasp of the bible rivals that of a religious zealot.

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06-01-2013 08:39 AM  5 years agoPost 95
Climax

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Richard Feynman was such a great physicist, and to me personally he was and still is a amazing inspiration!

Electronics, Physics, Helicopters, Fixing Things...

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06-01-2013 04:34 PM  5 years agoPost 96
outhouse

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Outhouse, Your grasp of the bible rivals that of a religious zealot.
Strong atheist who has a passion for real history

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06-01-2013 08:13 PM  5 years agoPost 97
GREYEAGLE

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Nope : NOT Atheist - They can change in a WINK - { He is a Apostate }
Dark - To Get Help Digging a Hole

a·pos·tate
/əˈpästāt/
Noun
A person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
Adjective
Abandoning such a belief or principle.
Synonyms
noun. renegade - turncoat - pervert - recreant - backslider
adjective. renegade - recreant

Committed the One and Only Unforgivable : "the" Unforgivable SIN

Even a murderer can be forgiven -to get out of mental jail - yet they set in a cage the rest of their lives. They can achieve salvation - to be HOLY - or Separated from the crime of the SIN : Waiting for Heaven

No place to go - Already convicted in a war that has already been won A ATHEIST can change in a snap - Happens regularly : LOT's

Why he is so full of it " House of Depository " and is bent on filling it full - and pulling others into it -Prey's on the weak - not to be trusted. Seeking the weak or prey to survive - lives for it

Even claiming to be a Atheist is a Lie : He's is Not----a APOSTATE

Just stuck in it - and full - waiting for more victim's. To become a professional at it. Not allowed to get out of the house. Convicted

greyeagle

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06-03-2013 03:03 PM  5 years agoPost 98
Hoggy42

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Well that about wraps it up for God.

I had hoped for a better argument. But at the end of the day there are no good arguments that support the other side. Can't say I'm surprised though.

A quick recap

Big Bang proven theory (feel free to disprove you'll be famous)
Evolution proven theory (feel free to disprove you'll be famous)
Age of the Earth approx 4.5 Billion Years Fact
Dinosaurs were real died out 65 million years ago Fact
Adam&Eve never happened proven with DNA Fact
Noahs ark absolute crap Mathematical impossible
Of course this stuff goes on. At the end of the day religion is completely illogical.
And then of course we have what Outhouse brings something I've never paid any attention to. It seems that any historical evidence from the bible is not very credible at all.

So the question is why does anybody believe this book? For the most part it's going to be childhood indoctrination. And the fact is that most people will never escape that. Unfortunately you were never given all the facts about reality and left to think about it for yourself. You were told this is the truth don't question it believe this or you will go to Hell be good or you will go to Hell etc. And who knows what you were told about scientists they were the work of Satan or evil people or whatever. I highly doubt this post will free your mind is all I can ask is look at the evidence ask questions once you understand evolution and the big bang see if you can prove them wrong as I said above your be famous maybe rich. I've looked at what you believe I've spent time in church and hanging around Christians I even wanted to believe it but it just didn't add up.

So why are you hanging on. I don't think it's fear of death we all will do that. And I don't think finality of death is worth fearing either.

The only constant I see anyone bringing up in debate is absolute morality. Do you really believe you get your morals from the Bible? Are you meaning to say that if you didn't have your religion you would murder people? Steal?

I don't doubt your sincerity but I do believe your deluded. Sure I can't prove God doesn't exist but I can't disprove the teapot in the suns orbit unicorns the tooth fairy or the flying spaghetti monster either but that doesn't make them real.

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06-03-2013 04:15 PM  5 years agoPost 99
GREYEAGLE

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You Keep Trying to Mix your Horoscope with your Fourtune Cookies: No High Jacking

From a Astro Physic's Point :

Speed : Time : Distance : Mass : and LIGHT

As Albert would say : Their is ONLY ONE Relative Constant

It cannot be High Jacked - The Speed of Light

We assume it is FIxed: a { Constant } and has been--------LIGHT

If we begin to achieve the speed of it -- TIME WILL SLOW DOWN

If the Proof of the Constant is True: E=Mc2

Darkness cannot extinguish LIGHT - We Measure it in Time and Distance

We spend Centuries looking Back into the Darkness of Time to Find IT

SOURCE : the Un changeable

Yet KNOW ONE has ever stopped it - Especially with Darkness

The ENERGY

Make special machines to determine it - and shoot our-self into the DArkness on rocket's to explore SPACE : For LIGHT

{ Is is a Wave ?? or a Particle ?? }

{ Mass or Not ?? } or { Speed?? or Energy ?? }

{ Distance or Time ??} How good are we measuring it ??

{ Physical Solid or a Noise ?? }

The Source of the Origin - The Sound and Energy of it - Where ??? How - Why ?? -How Far ?? and Time : The WHAT

Don't worry : You WILL NOT make HIM Nervous Looking for it

Is it a Vis - a or a Verse-a: Pretty easy to look them up in the Common Book for the Elemental - EARTH MAN - They have been studying it for Centuries - as we know them - and writing about IT

Start in 1.1 then start down the path of just looking up over 2000 year's - to the references of LIGHT - The Gift which was Given and the Constant which cannot change -The TRUTH of The Constant

Too many have wandered away from it and into the --------- dark

greyeagle

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06-03-2013 10:45 PM  5 years agoPost 100
helicopter

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Light is a particle and arrives in a wave.

The Book says a man arose from the Grave.

We need but to take His Hand

He'll lift us UP with glory Grand.

No HAND say Ye?

Go pound sand...

I love gravity, it always keeps my feet planted when I fly!

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