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Home🏆Contest✈️Aircraft🚁Helicopter🏆Aerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › Death of the flybar in year 201...
05-07-2013 07:57 PM  6 years ago
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Santiago P

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Dayton

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Death of the flybar in year 201...
crystal ball question:

Pardon my ignorance; once the FBL electronic systems are allowed in F3C, would this mean the classic flybared heads be not legal, or could competitors used whatever they want?

I know we are already having FBL (3-gyro assist) only contest, and/or provisional classes, but will it always be a clear separation of both?

Santiago
Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
FUTABA.USA - Team Kontronik - Scorpion Motors-
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05-07-2013 11:29 PM  6 years ago
nickmaxwell

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Huntsville, AL

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From what I understand, in the future once it is legal in the F3C class, it will all mix and be at the pilot's discretion of which they want to use.

My opinion... since there is only two hovering maneuvers in the corresponding sequence for when FBL becomes legal, you'll see a CGY750 mounted in the nose of my F3C heli... call me crazy, but I think FBL is FINALLY getting to the point in which it hovers "naturally". And given the larger number of aeros vs. hovering, it'll be somewhat of a wash as long as the hover maneuvers do not require much "sitting still" stuff. Up until recently this wasn't the case though...

Nick
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05-08-2013 08:23 AM  6 years ago
krcnz

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Tauranga - New Zealand

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Hi Nick and Santiago

I think I am reading into this you guys might have a hint of what an FAI F3C FBL schedule would possibly look like...

Anything you could possibly share?
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05-08-2013 02:40 PM  6 years ago
GM1

rrElite Veteran

Tallahassee, Florida US

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New F3C Schedules
I have seen the proposals, as I suspect Nick has. There are two hovering maneuvers, seven aerobatic maneuvers, and an auto. P is not much, if any, more difficult than now. F is tough.
On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
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05-08-2013 02:46 PM  6 years ago
Santiago P

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Dayton

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krcnz

I am in the dark, that's why I'm asking.

With regards to the schedules, there is been a trend of more aeros vs hovering. I dont know what's in store next, but I agree with Nick about the moment to switch is when:
1. The FBL systems become "mature" for precise hovering.
2. Number of aeros manuevers overwelms the hovering.
3. combination of 1 and 2

As for our AMA schedules, dont know if we'll follow the same trends. Expert class is today at 3 hover, 4 aeros + auto. The aeros are more complex but interesting than before, but the hovering still the hardest part in my book.
I believe could not come close to my normal and lousy scores if I switched now.

Santiago
Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
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05-09-2013 03:52 AM  6 years ago
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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With the right FBL system, yes you could. I know this because I was able to more or less match my average scores with a fbl model that I used to get flying a Fb model, and that was with firmware that hovered nowhere near as well as what I have now.

The biggest issue is that guys confuse a fbl system hovering poorly for one that in actuality only hovers differently. You cannot fly a FBL model in hover like a FB model, you cannot learn the technique overnight, and you cannot easily jump back and forth. At such a time as you make the move, go in with both feet up to your neck, and all will be well.

Ben Minor
Peak Aircraft/Team Minicopter Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
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05-09-2013 04:32 AM  6 years ago
3dgimble

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Rochester

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when FBL becomes legal,
My two cents, it would defeat the purpose of FC3 if FBL was allowed. The purpose of using FB is to show the real skills of the pilot at the Gimbals. Its like allowing all sorts of electronic aids in Formula one racing, it would defeat the purpose of showcasing a drivers skills.

If one were to use a CGY750 1.31 for FC3 against FB or others, Futaba would dominate 10 to nil.
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05-09-2013 07:54 AM  6 years ago
Santiago P

rrProfessor

Dayton

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EDIT
My two cents, it would defeat the purpose of FC3 if FBL was allowed. The purpose of using FB is to show the real skills of the pilot at the Gimbals. Its like allowing all sorts of electronic aids in Formula one racing, it would defeat the purpose of showcasing a drivers skills.
uh, you don't get it,

FBL takes the same amount of skill to fly the hovering sequence, different technique as Ben keeps pointing out, but the FBL unit DOES NOT FLY THE MANUEVER OR CORRECTS FOR YOU as you think.

Aeros are MUCH aided by the use of FBL units, making it brainless sometimes.

This is why you are reading above that when the aeros become more prevalent than the hovering, the tide will turn quickly. But, with a 50-50 split, my personal preference (today) is a flybar.

Not taking anything away that a CGY750 1.31 is the best system on hover (that I have tested out of the box). Surely the others will follow suit WRT.
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05-10-2013 05:58 AM  6 years ago
MANCHA

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Cabo San Lucas, Baja- Mexico

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I guess this conversation happened when modern heading hold gyros started to be seen in action.
Even 3D was borned as we now know it !

A wonderful F401 was so powerful then but, compare to a F520 or a F701, there is absolutly no match.
Same is happening with FBL electronics, they will keep on evolving, a new set of maneuvers will appear and we, pilots will continue With our corresponding challenges, you bet !!
MANCHA
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05-16-2013 06:01 PM  6 years ago
RogerRabbit62

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Thuerigen germany

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ok

but where to put the limit?

If you allow fbl and mms sensors you can have position hold software in the unit.
Noone can check from the outside.

It would also be easy just to follow tracks or even angles.

You could make the unit stop the heli and hold height
This way it is like parking the heli over the flag.
You can drink a coffee and talk to your announcing buddy.

A lot of things FBL will do in future drones already do.

I have a FBL in my F3C machine as tail controller and a paddle head.
It can automaticly hover the heli fairly good if i set it up that way.
Who can check on a bus system which software is running and what is used by the pilot?

Where is the sense in flying roll reversals with a FBL which is automatically compensating all imprecisions in the path and the rollrates?

You have to concentrate on timing on pitch and on beeing exactly straigt with the tail and disk thats it.

Will that be a material war then ?
Will it be a programmers contest?
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05-16-2013 08:56 PM  6 years ago
Santiago P

rrProfessor

Dayton

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If you allow fbl and mms sensors you can have position hold software in the unit.
Noone can check from the outside.

It would also be easy just to follow tracks or even angles.

You could make the unit stop the heli and hold height
This way it is like parking the heli over the flag.
You can drink a coffee and talk to your announcing buddy.

A lot of things FBL will do in future drones already do.
Not following you.

Please name a current unit that can hold height or position without GPS, only using mems.

S
Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
FUTABA.USA - Team Kontronik - Scorpion Motors-
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05-17-2013 09:00 AM  6 years ago
RogerRabbit62

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Thuerigen germany

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No, not one of the actual units.

But it is easy to implement for the companies or a Software engeneer, so it will come up.

Captron did come up with recalculation of the helis orientation in space by calculating the double integrals of the acceleration from the rotary mms for their "bailout" feature.
The same can be done on translational mms sensors for Position without gps.

So it is not a question of technic but of time.

How will you see the difference from the outside?

Will there only be approved unit allowed?

Only V-bar in F3C?
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05-17-2013 02:58 PM  6 years ago
Santiago P

rrProfessor

Dayton

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But it is easy to implement for the companies or a Software engeneer, so it will come up.

Captron did come up with recalculation of the helis orientation in space by calculating the double integrals of the acceleration from the rotary mms for their "bailout" feature.
The same can be done on translational mms sensors for Position without gps.
I know what Captron has done, I rep for them.
But the last, you are saying that translational movement can be sensed and controlled without adding linear mems (accelerometers IOW), and just by adding software to current units hardware?

BTW, Great discussion

S
Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
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05-17-2013 03:43 PM  6 years ago
RogerRabbit62

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Thuerigen germany

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No. You need 6 axis sensors.
But i am pretty sure that captron will come up with such a unit soon or some of the other manufacturers.
It is a dynamic market out there.
We technically could do it but it is not our business line.

You can get all Information on translational and rotational out of one I2C chip mmes:
http://www.adafruit.com/datasheets/STMEMS.pdf
I am sure the 6 axis chips will be in the units quick because the "drone"-control is the mass-market and there the cheep units will be designed for.
GPS is far too expensive and far too slow for that so double integration of acceleration will be the way for postion hold (and automated path, decend, e.g.).

This will allow soft barriers also as well as automated landing for beginners.

BTW Captron is a great Company. Their guys are really open and helpful.
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