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HomeAircraftHelicopterBeginners Corner › The Fear of 3-D (after the basics).
04-27-2013 07:16 AM  5 years agoPost 1
Clark

rrNovice

Cape Cod, MA

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Backrgound:
I'm "that guy" at the RC field that only does forward flight, has about 25-30 six-minute-flights on his two 450 birds (BladeX & TreX) and a few crashes in the beginning. I've watched & learned from the thousands of posts & videos on how to do "The Basics" & I'm totally comfortable with 8's & hovering in different orientations, high speed flight, steep-turns, snap-turns, etc.

I've literally logged DAYS (yes, 61 hours) on RealFlight 6.5 in the past 6 months practicing with the 450-500 size birds. I'm doing (pretty proficiently, without crashing believe it or not)
-All orientation hover
-High speed backwards flight
-High speed inverted & backwards inverted
-Tic-tocs
-Funnels: Nose & Tail down
... on the sim that is...

Problem:

I cannot seem to overcome my fear to translate even the simplest 3D-sim skill to the real thing.

-Tell me you've felt my pain brothas... how'd you overcome it? Yoga? Heavy drinking? Breathing exercises?

-How do you think my sim capabilities will transfer to real life? Based on those, what should I do? Do you think the 3D skills should transfer to real life at all?

In my rational mind, I know I'm eventually going to crash again, it will be painful & violent, I'll fix it, and fly again. Unfortunately, that isn't helping. I need a 3D-bridge or a solid 10-step lesson plan, like they have for the basics. Unfortunately, all of the 3D-vids posted are learn-by-watching instead of real teaching/instruction. Everyone I talked to started 3D by the seat of their pants with no structure, so their advice is to do whatever they did, which is rarely the safe nor logical way.

-Need tips for The Fear.
-Need steps for the practice.
-Need input on Sim transfer to Actual at this stage. Opinons/Experience/Stories?

-Need suggestions on making the helis a little more break-apart-&-shatter-resistant (got metal servos at least)

I've got a beautiful, brand new Logo 500(FB) sitting in my garage right now ready to wreak havok... but its just dusty.

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04-27-2013 07:36 AM  5 years agoPost 2
3dgimble

rrKey Veteran

Rochester

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I cannot seem to overcome my fear to translate even the simplest 3D-sim skill to the real thing.
Do it old school, come out and get real stick time in, its even easier now with FBL.

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04-27-2013 07:48 AM  5 years agoPost 3
Reki

rrNovice

Chugiak, Alaska - USA

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I am not new.. Just a new name. Though been awhile for me too getting back into the hobby after a few years off. Your answer is simple really.. Just as you learned all your basics, it all applies to you applying it to your 3d skills. Start off slow and preferably at a decent altitude incase you get into some mishap. Just ease into your maneuvers like you do on your sim. Take it slow, no rush. Honestly I would start in backwards flight first once you got it down an comfortable add more speed. Just know your limits and back off when you need to. Once you can do it all backwards comfortably try inverted.. I guess the point I am trying to make is know all your orientations comfortably before trying anything big. That way in case you do get into some issue you will be more then comfortable in getting out of it.

I too hate that pucker factor but only you can break free from it.

Its like me. I so luv doing autos, but can't break myself from rotating tail in at the last 6 feet.

Cheers

Reki

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04-27-2013 07:54 AM  5 years agoPost 4
808HeliBoyz

rrNovice

Kailua, Hawaii

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I'm the same as you. You ever go to the field saying to yourself " today is the day, I'm gonna do it", then when you're flying, your stomach gets all in knots and your knees get weak all the way 'til the end of the flight? Ya, me too. Just don't even think about it. Take the heli up high and just flip it. Forward, backward, left or right, it don't matter,you've got the muscle memory from the sim, you know how to do it, just get one in under your belt. Then finish the rest of your flight and enjoy the feeling. Next battery, try two if you like, then move on from there.

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04-27-2013 12:14 PM  5 years agoPost 5
wrongler

rrProfessor

Brewerton, New York

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Once you do your first 3D manuver the rest will fall in place, Its about building confidence. As most pointed out keep it high and just do it!
Stick with it and you'll be fine!

Bill Whittaker

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04-27-2013 03:17 PM  5 years agoPost 6
KevinB

rrKey Veteran

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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Or... pick yourself up an mcpxBL. It's the "real-life" sim !
As long as you are flying over grass and hit the throttle hold before you go in, you don't usually break it.
It has the capability to do basic 3d and you don't need to be afraid of crashing it. It will do ticktocks, funnels, piroflips, etc.
Of course it won't fly quite as well as your 450 or 500 size machine, but when you are comfortable with a move on it, it's EASIER to do on your bigger heli.

I'm in the same boat. I can probably fly at least twice as good on the sim as I do at the field because of nerves. What I do now for learning a new move is:
- HOURS on the sim, practicing to the point I don't crash doing the new move. That's what winter is for .
- try it on the mcpx and practice it there until I'm comfortable with it.
- from there I'll try doing it on a 450 starting at a good altitude. Usually it will be more of a "yup, I can do it" rather than a bunch more practice.(since it will be easier to do than on the mcpx). From there I'll bring down the altitude and fly it for a while on the 450.
- from that point, I'm totally comfortable doing it on any of my larger helis.

I think the main thing is "little steps" to get your confidence set. Steps that are pushing your skills and comfort, without overstepping your limits. For each person, their "stretch point" will determine the size of their "little steps".

KevinB

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04-27-2013 09:15 PM  5 years agoPost 7
Clark

rrNovice

Cape Cod, MA

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Reki,8,Wrong,Kevin- gracias boys.

A seemingly minor point that you all agree on is to get the heli high (common sense to me) but I was told by an blow-hard early on in this hobby not to go too high when doing 3D as orientation became an issue, so I figured that was absolute Rule #1 when I heard it.... guess not, and to think I would still be thinking that. At least not pertinent when trying to break through a mental barrier.

100-200ft be a good place to start - that eases the nerves(if doing nothing for the eyesight), but any problems should be seen-fixed in the 8-10 seconds of dropping/spinnin the heli will do from that altitude.

I looked for about 5 days for "Advanced" or "Intermediate" lessons on video. Never found any worth a ****. 20 mins after posting here I came across these:

Watch at YouTube

Watch at YouTube

Exactly what I was looking for (a big difference between the Just-Watch-me-fly-while-I-mutter-&-stutter Heli "Instructional" Videos and these guys). Its a shame so few Heli pilots can teach/explain what they know to others in lessons.

BACKWARDS was what I was thinking too, but hearing you say it makes me think you're on to something.
-Its got the least amount of reversed controls
-The same pitch thumb
-Universal Bailout is R-thumb-forward correct? = stops all tail-down pitch, brings heli into a stop, can return to fws if desired?
(This is what a "bail-out" is, yes?)

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05-02-2013 02:12 AM  5 years agoPost 8
dela

rrApprentice

Stillwater Oklahoma

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Have a bailout plan for each new thing you try, and practice the bailout so it is second nature.

For example, to learn inverted hovering, I practiced

Half roll to inverted
Pause
Climb (low stick)
Half loop

At first, there was minimal pause, but it got longer and longer. If things ever seemed wrong, I'd initiate the bailout.

You should be able to come up with a bailout for each new thing you want to try.

Ps. I can't 3d, but my suggestion will work.

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05-02-2013 06:43 AM  5 years agoPost 9
sonnyhad

rrProfessor

Holland,Mi

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If you really want to boost your confidence, get yourself a 50 sized machine, that did it for me, much more stable. My 2 cents.

Bald Pilots usually wear hats!

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05-02-2013 07:23 AM  5 years agoPost 10
Clark

rrNovice

Cape Cod, MA

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I have a Logo-500 I'm converting to FBL as soon as my parts get here. I do love that thing, & yes, it is a far more stable & happy heli, but when I screw up making my first dozen noob 3D mistakes, I'd rather it be on my beater Blade 400/450X.

I can't afford a new set of 523 Blades, tail, and herring main gear for the 500 every week through this phase.. It is a magnificent beast though, I just cant fly it with the charm it deserves yet.

Thank you for the bail-out clarification. I inadvertently practice those on the sim (contrary to non-simmer opinions)trying to keep from crashing. While I cannot fly with the suaveness that I can on the sim, it certainly has taught me some intuitive bail-out process in that:
Once you understand the controls well in different orientations, its a lot easier to get the heli out of trouble than solely grasping Fwd/Upright flight.

UPDATE: Taking each chunk of everyone's input, including the "just sack-up & do it" which was really what I needed to be told (thank you)...
.. I tried the very mild intro to 3D stuff you recommended over the last 2-3 days...

WOW! - That Idle-Up Switch is MAGIC! It turned my 450X into a completely new heli. It took my grumpy, nervous, hesitant demeanor and trashed it, leaving me hooting like a teenager. I could not believe how much easier/funner it is to fly! I've been terrified of the IU switch since my first flights & was told NEVER to touch it. 2 days, 8 batteries, a dozen or so loops, rolls, flips, even a brief splash of backwards flight. - no crashes (I was high up).

WHY does increasing the head-speed by 300 RPM make the heli so much more stable, easier to fly, & resilient to wind/turbulence? Its was 9-12mph winds with gusts & that little guy acted like he could care less(?) Makes me never wanna fly Normal Mode again. I'm havin' fun again.
Thank you gentlemen... Thank you!

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05-02-2013 01:43 PM  5 years agoPost 11
KevinB

rrKey Veteran

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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Are you saying you were trying to 3D in normal mode before?????
No wonder you were having problems!

Even if you never go inverted, having IU turned on for flying in any kind of wind helps TONS. This is because you can now force the heli down with a little negative pitch and maintain your head speed (and stability/control). In normal flight mode, rpm would bleed off.....unless your doing an auto. And of course, if you were ever going inverted (even loops/rolls), your head speed would begin to decay in normal mode as well.

I guess all of us trying to help assumed you were using idle up already. Since we are on the topic of inverted, what are you running for a pitch setup? If you are getting into 3d, the best option is a zero pitch at mid stick setup and a straight line from equal negative and positive pitch values. I know some people start off with their helis set up for a hover at mid stick. I did, but then converted when I started flying 3d.

KevinB

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10-05-2013 04:06 AM  5 years agoPost 12
Zaneman007

rrElite Veteran

Texas - USA

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Road block
IMO - the only way to overcome the road block is to tell yourself it's OK. Go out and buy the replacement parts before you crash. Tell yourself those new blades that you want and have already purchased go on as soon as you bust up the old ones.

We would all be pro pilots if we didn't fear crashing.

And fly high, give yourself some room to screw up and recover.

Old Guys Rule!

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10-05-2013 04:09 AM  5 years agoPost 13
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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Clark,

May I ask, how old are you?

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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10-05-2013 07:49 PM  5 years agoPost 14
gcm2

rrApprentice

Ft Worth, TX

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You ever go to the field saying to yourself " today is the day, I'm gonna do it", then when you're flying, your stomach gets all in knots and your knees get weak all the way 'til the end of the flight? Ya, me too. Just don't even think about it. Take the heli up high and just flip it.
Could not agree more! All the other comments are very good too. Thank you gentlemen - I need the advice as well. My own additional problem is that I can't stop my poor head from imagining what parts I'm gonna have to fix if I lose it

I wanted to add my experience as it is... I only recently started learning inverted hover (HIGH up).

I was out of the hobby for years, and had to re-learn the basic flips and rolls and collective management again (with the appropriate abject terror and racing heart...), but I'm doing these very well now. OK, after flipping backwards and leveling out inverted, I'm now just trying to keep the thing more or less stationery in space - AND my BAIL OUT is just push forward stick and then positive collective. Since I am very familiar with the basics of a forward flip, this is natural for me. I've been holding it inverted for up to 30 secs so far without too much panic

BTW: although I do have a sim and use it sometimes, at least for me the real world is better to reinforce new things. In other words, I practiced inverted on the sim maybe 10 sessions, and then just went out and flipped it over since I was very confident in my bail out maneuver. My next REAL work on the sim will be inverted forward/backward flight. I have never done this - at least not on purpose

I'm taking it slow. It only gets better.

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10-05-2013 08:23 PM  5 years agoPost 15
yammx

rrApprentice

Munich, Germany

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You have to enjoy the fear, the excitement and the rush of adrenaline. Take it as a positive influence that keeps you focused and alert when flying your chopper. After a while you will see it becomes usual and the fear goes away!

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10-05-2013 09:39 PM  5 years agoPost 16
Heli_Splatter

rrElite Veteran

USA

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Fly More, Less Filling....
61 hours of sim time? in last 6 months. I think that I average 10-15 hrs a week. I get real comfortable on the sim and then bring it out.

You need to fly more no matter where you are doing it.

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10-07-2013 01:14 AM  5 years agoPost 17
ZS-JAF

rrVeteran

Nazareth, PA

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I like the small heli idea. My buddy has a blade 300 and it is rock solid. It is great to try that first flip on. I think finding someone who is proficient will help a lot to. It depends on how disciplined you are but I think it makes sense to walk before you run. What I mean is master all hover orientations up right and then inverted. Just this is a huge feet. I did not follow this advise, I was looping way before I could hover inverted, the problem is when upside down the heli is temporarily out of control. If that is to easy then figure 8s in every orientation and direction is no easy feat. I have been working on that for years. Spend three solid packs on just one new maneuver and it will pay off.

I have a 3D heli, I don't understand why it doesn't do 3D.

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10-07-2013 04:25 PM  5 years agoPost 18
Ladymagic

rrKey Veteran

South Korea

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Clark,

I love posts like this one. Because I know you are right on the edge of a huge break through. And yes, I was in the same position you are in now. The fear of a crash keeps you from really pushing yourself. Becuase of this, I spent nearly 2 years hovering (this was all before I knew about the sim).

I became super proficient at all orientations of hovering and could do it without a second thought. My break through was after I discovered Realflight.

As for you, as long as you kept your settings as realistic as possible, your sim time should translate over almost exactly to real world flying. I found that RealFlight 3.5 was the most realistic in regards to autos, and flight characteristics, but nowadays, all the sims do a pretty good job. You just need to set your mind to do it. Just understand that crashing isn't always a bad thing once you get over that, you can fly like the pros. You have the skill you just need to do it. Just do it all in baby steps and you'll be fine. Good luck and just get out there and do it. Just have a bailout plan!

Mellisa

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10-09-2013 01:58 AM  5 years agoPost 19
Einzelganger

rrKey Veteran

Campbell, Texas

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Sounds like you are doing great!
For me, Real Flight 6.5 translates exactly to my birds. My sim time has translated exactly as well. I have gone to the effort to configure all of the sim helis to exact duplicates of my own.
An important issue you mentioned is practicing new maneuvers at eye level on the sim and then trying it like that on the real bird. The problem is of course, that this is not safe.
It is safe to practice this way on the sim but not the way to start with the real bird. My first flips, loops, rolls, and inverted were a bit off and very stressful as I had practiced sim time at eye level and the real bird at a more intelligent altitude. The visual orientation was enough similar that I could do it, but enough different that it was not comfortable. The fix was to do my sim practice at the same visual altitude that I could safely fly my real birds. I do all my 3-D practice at about 50 feet. Now that I practice both at the same altitude (visually), the experience is the same.....well almost. My hands and fingers still shake like I have some sort of disease while flying the real birds. I do, however, love adrenaline. If I didn't, I'd be collecting stamps instead of FBL controllers and 30% nitro.
Remember baby steps with a bail-out plan, keep crash parts on hand, and just go for it!

Wayne

I love the smell of nitro in the morning.
RIP Roman

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10-09-2013 03:26 AM  5 years agoPost 20
simchippy

rrNovice

Long Island NY

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Realflight is fine to get stick movements down but real stick time is needed to progress. I'd do like someone above said regarding the mcpx but instead I'd pick up a 130x as its tail will hold better in 3d, backward flight, etc. They can be a bit of maintenance but if you fly over grass with some height and you hit TH before impact you can get many crashes without damage. I find a real heli to be much better than sim. I use my 450 for all new stuff, in the winter when it gets cold I fly the 130x in my front yard for practice. I find it very easy to practice a move on a 130x/450 and once comfortable immediately do it on a 600 or 700. It's actually much easier on the big ones

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