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HomeAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › ZYX-s reset Sending Heli out of Control
04-25-2013 01:55 PM  5 years agoPost 21
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Those ESCs have up to par BECs in them. A Hobbywing.....well..... Not the same. He needs a better ESC, like a Jazz 40, great bulletproof BEC for a 450.

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-25-2013 06:29 PM  5 years agoPost 22
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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the need for an external BEC on a 450 FBL as a general statement
I'd indicated that for a standard flybar heli, the standard 450 ESCs are adequate. What I did state, was that as FBL systems become more mainstream, and as they typically require higher performance digital servos, many of those FBL 450s and the older ESCs may now be marginal.

I had been flying a 550 on a Castle ICE 100, 3G controller, and stock DS610/620 servos for quite awhile with no problem, using the ICE 100 internal BEC. I replaced the 3G with a 3GX system running V2.1 software, and all was well. BUT -- when I updated to V3.0 software in the 3GX, the ICE 100 BEC was no longer capable of providing adequate current to the system, even with it just sitting on a table. I had asked Castle about the limits of the ICE 100 BEC, and though it is advertised as a 5 amp BEC, that is a peak rating. The continuous rating is more along the lines of 2- 2.5 amps.

With the 3GX V3.0 SW rollout, Align is finding that the stock 15A ESC shipping with the Trex 250 no longer has an adequate BEC. They have recently released an updated version, capable of 4 amps continuous output.

Notable is the new CC Talon 90, sporting a 9 amp continuous, 20A peak BEC.

Times are changing, perhaps BECs need to, as well.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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04-26-2013 05:26 AM  5 years agoPost 23
KevinB

rrKey Veteran

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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I can't say that my ESC BECs aren't "marginal" for their application as I have never actually measured servo current.

However, having never had a problem with BEC shutdown on any of my FBL 450s in over 5 years of flying them, I have to conclude that although they may in fact be "marginal", 3A BECs are sufficient for a 450FBL.....at least when using a VBar (v3 - v5.34)

laughingstill,
I agree the Jazz40 is an awesome little ESC that has never given me a problem. Interesting to note that the Jazz40 BEC is only rated 2.5A continuous/ 3A peak for 10 seconds.

Perhaps the Jazz BECs are under-rated ???

KevinB

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04-27-2013 12:48 AM  5 years agoPost 24
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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I had the heli up today on a fresh charged 7.4v and a minute in it reset. I tried it again an hour ago and it held for about 5 minutes on 11.1 but when I set it down because the battery seemed to be loosing power, it reset.

you're all correct, the HW esc may not be up to powering four digital servos, a rx, and a 3x gyro and the 3500kv motor. What worked on fb might not be sufficient for the new system and like the security of keeping the electronics separate from the battery. I like the bec approach regardless.

when the battery goes into low voltage the gyro will reset resulting in frozen servos, often not stopped at a level swash and the tail spun around. This may have something to do with the gyro itself as it may have preferences regarding servos.

None of the resets have been worth the broken parts, they happen out of the blue and it's very annoying.

I'll have to get all the stats regarding each electronic and do the math. Somewhere in there amps are being redirected from the gyro enough to cause the reset.

I noticed the tail fretted more on 11.1v and it's got power but power I don't need, does more damage and makes me nervous in my limited space.

Suppose I stick with 11.1v, would a governor to drop rpm be a possibility?

Super help.

An upside to my down time with the real heli is that after making a chart to reference on every flight orientation I now have managed to do some figure 8s inverted on the sim, nose out was easier.

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04-27-2013 01:11 AM  5 years agoPost 25
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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You are not quite understanding what is happening. EVEN IF you has a 3s lipo, that BEC would still shut down as it is not designed robust enough to handle all those electronics. You need a better ESC with a solid BEC. If you go with the Jazz 40, it will allow you to have the super low percentages without hurting the ESC AND give you a bulletproof BEC.......Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-27-2013 02:08 AM  5 years agoPost 26
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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understood

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04-27-2013 04:39 AM  5 years agoPost 27
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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I still am not sure you understand.

The regulator in your ESC will regulate the raw 7.4 volt battery input down to a constant 5.25 or 6 volt output (depending upon what voltage you chose for the output when you programmed it), REGARDLESS of the current drawn by the motor.

The purpose of the internal regulator is to maintain a constant output voltage REGARDLESS of the battery input voltage (as long as you don't exceed the input voltage limits of that regulator).

The motor drive circuitry, though it shares the same battery as the input to your internal regulator, is separate from the regulator, and no matter what happens at the motor, the output of your regulator to the electronics will remain constanat.

HOWEVER -- if your electronics (receiver, FBL controller, servos...) require a large amount of current FROM that regulator on a continuous basis, that current demand may be more than the regulator can supply on a continuous basis. If that is the case, the regulator has been designed for self-preservation. It will either LIMIT the total current available to the electronics (and in doing so MIGHT allow the output voltage to suffer (drop)), or it may simply shut down altogether until it sees the current load reduced so that it is back within safe operating limits.

-----

Your last post gives me an additional clue. It would appear that you are flying until the battery is so depleted that its output voltage drops below the cutoff limit for the ESC. LiPo batteries are somewhat picky. They don't want their output voltage to rise much above 4.2 volts per cell when fully charged, and they don't tolerate being discharged below 3.0 volts well, at all. Your ESC has a cutoff voltage setting that is programmed to shut down the MOTOR drive stuff when the ESC senses that the battery input voltage has dropped below the safe minimum voltage for a LiPo pack.

The internal regulator, on the other hand, should continue to operate.

You MAY have a problem running a 2S LiPo, as a 2S LiPo when fully discharged will have an output voltage of 6.0 volts. I don't know what kind of regulator the HobbyWing ESC has, if it is a linear regulator, or if it is a switch mode regulator of some form.

If it is a linear regulator, it will typically require that the input voltage remain 0.1 or greater than its output voltage for it to maintain regulation. Linear regulators have a specified "dropout voltage" -- that is a minimum input voltage required to allow the output to remain constant. If the input voltage drops below that minimum voltage, the output will become unregulated and will begin to drop as the input voltage drops.

If the regulator is a switch mode style regulator, it may simply shut off if the input voltage drops below a specified minimum level.

If you continue to run your LiPos down until they are completely discharged, and the output drops below 3.0 volts per cell, you may be unwittingly killing the LiPo.

The general rule to maintain healthy batteries is to discharge them no more than 80%. If your battery pack was a 1000 mah pack, stop flying after you have used 800 mah worth of capacity. This will prolong your LiPo battery life. Flying until you see a noticeable drop in motor RPM tells me that you are discharging your packs very close to 100% of capacity. That is not good.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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04-28-2013 12:39 AM  5 years agoPost 28
RCHSF

rrKey Veteran

NC

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My ZYX-S Is not Initializing After Turning Off & Back On. Only time it works is when you set it up, and press the little button on the side of the zyx-s. It works, but soon as you turn it off, and back on, flashing blue light again. Well maybe it's not garbage, but dang.

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04-28-2013 01:24 AM  5 years agoPost 29
dcasole

rrApprentice

Dacula GA

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I have 2 Copter X units (Same as the ZYX) and they all work perfectly

my buddys all fly them, from 3d style to lazy flying around the sky

easy to set up , easy to change parameters, and inexpensive !

Dont knock them till you tried them

Dave

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04-28-2013 03:42 AM  5 years agoPost 30
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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dkshema, I understand that a voltage drop of a 3s 11.1v pack to below 10.5 volts will trip the system to reset. I ran off an 11.1v battery yesterday and plugged it into my charger. It's remaining voltage read 10.3 volts. That would be just under 3.4 volts per cell, the limit on my heli system, hw esc, seems to be 3.5v per pack.

If the topped up juice reading for an 11.1v 3c lipo is 12.5, then the 20 percent depletion limit mark should be no less than 10.6v. Minus 3v and its game over for heli, so rude not telling me ahead of time.

I prefer to operate a heli that I still maintain control of after the esc to the motor only looses consciousness. A crash is what you get when limiting the electronics to a battery whose main juice goes to spinning a motor.

I don't mind an esc cutting out, and no I don't want to over discharge batteries repeatedly, and I feel safest when there's control over the heli at all times. An esc reset on the ganged system could cause the heli to veer into any direction with harmfull results. The HW esc simply cannot handle the amps needed to run everything safely.

it's peculiar because there was a time I tried to gang three servos with gyros on each, didn't work. There was a need for more juice because each gyro used more amps through a system that was not design for the task.

The zyx is very nice. RCHSF, if you tell the guys at Tarot about your problem they really have a decent interest in caring for the end users and have a positive customer service feedback, give them a call or email.

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04-28-2013 07:03 AM  5 years agoPost 31
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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I understand that a voltage drop of a 3s 11.1v pack to below 10.5 volts will trip the system to reset.
Where on earth did you come up with that number, and that logic? It is totally incorrect.

A full, good LiPo cell is charged at 4.2 volts. It is fully discharged at 3.0 volts. Nominal voltage during discharge is about 3.7 volts.

A 3S LiPo, then, is at 12.6 volts fully charged, 9.0 volts fully discharged, and nominally 11.1 volts during discharge.

Battery capacity is measured in milliamp-hours, not volts. Voltage alone is NOT a reliable indicator of state of charge. Your math may be performed in good faith, but you're looking at the wrong parameter to determine remaining capacity of the battery.

If you have a 1000 mah battery pack, when you have drained 800 mah worth of energy out of it, you have used 80% of its capacity. Time to stop flying and recharge.

If you are flying that 2300 mah pack, you should stop flying when you've used about 1840 mah worth of energy out of the pack. When you recharge, you should be putting back about that amount, perhaps a bit more, accounting for less than a 100% energy conversion process when charging.

If you are losing CONTROL of your electronics with a 10.5 or 10.6 volt battery, you have some serious issues with your equipment.

Looking closely at the Hobbywing 40 amp Platinum ESC, it supports a 2 to 6S LiPo input, and its internal BEC is a switch mode regulator. The BEC is rated at 3 amps, but it is not noted if that is a continuous or peak rating. I would venture a guess that it is a peak rating.

You can select one of three shut-off voltages for the motor portion of the ESC ... Low, Medium, and High.

The Low cutoff point is 2.85 volts per cell, the medium cutoff voltage is 3.15 volts per cell, and the high voltage cutoff is 3.30 volts per cell.

Using a 3S LiPo, the ESC will send the motor control into soft-cutoff when your battery pack voltage reaches 8.55 volts, 9.45, or 9.9 volts. NONE of those are close to 10.5 or 10.6. The BEC output of the ESC will NOT shut down, and you will have complete control of the on-board electronics. You will NOT lose control.

Further, since the ESC will operate from a 2S LiPo, that tells me the BEC will continue to put out a well-regulated 5.25 or 6.0 volts to all of the on-board electronics with an input voltage less than 7 volts. Your electronics should not quit working with the 10.5 or 10.6 volt number you state in your post.

Whether you're using a Futaba radio or a JR/Spektrum radio, the receivers will continue to work until their input voltage drops to or below about 3.5 VDC. The Tarot ZYX-S FBL controller also operates down to 3.5 VDC.

IF your system is truly resetting in flight, it would mean that the voltage out of your BEC is dropping to or below 3.5 VDC. Unless you have faulty equipment, about the only way for that to happen is for you to continually demand more current than the BEC is designed to supply, forcing it to go into an overcurrent protection mode.

Poor solder joints at the battery connector and/or the motor connectors can also wreak havoc with an otherwise well-behaved system.

For the record, your receiver and FBL system use very little power -- the ZYX controller only 60 ma, your receiver probably only 25-30 ma. That's less than 100 ma to run the RX and the FBL controller. The servos are the power hungry devils.

If you have one or more servos whose pushrods are binding up or reaching a mechanical limit before reaching the commanded position, you will have excessive current draw and you may eventually have a servo fail. Excessive servo current from being mechanically stalled can tax the BEC.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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04-28-2013 12:47 PM  5 years agoPost 32
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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thanks dks, it would appear I have not rechecked the voltage cutoff which seems to be 3.4v per cell. Time to put that in the middle.

There are other guys with the annoying reset issue, either in end of flight low voltage or rebooting with a fresh battery.

the HW esc is 3 amp peak.

My solder joints are fine, my servos might have a bind from damaged teeth (#1 servo),

What I could do is turn the gain down on the gyro to put less energy in stabilizing the heli. A servo tester should be my next investment.

Obviously something is pulling more juice away from the gyro sending it into reset.

thanks for making things clear. Dollar for dollar the higher amp bec (10amp CC ubec that is) is a safer bet than the built in bec in the HW esc given the power supply is not the problem.

A damaged/binding servo and or a high voltage digital servo could be at the root of this. The kstds215mg has a huge motor in it, it's as wide as the case and I can imagine what power it's going to need compared to one used in the jr 65mgs.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It's nice to sort the bugs out on an inexpensive heli.

I just discovered a binding tail slider, gone.

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04-30-2013 01:58 AM  5 years agoPost 33
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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A servo tester should be my next investment.
Your next investment should be either a separate regulator that is capable of delivering the necessary current to your existing electronics or a more capable ESC with less nasty low battery voltage shutdown control AND a better internal BEC with more current ability.

Servo tester is a nice "use it once in a long while toy" while the other two options would actually get you flying.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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04-30-2013 01:43 PM  5 years agoPost 34
KevinB

rrKey Veteran

Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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^^^^^ Agreed ^^^^^^

And while you are at it, if any of your servos sound/feel "crunchy" when you turn them by hand while un-powered, buy some servo gear sets and replace those as well. Do this test with the control rods removed from the servos so you can turn them 180 degrees. Also move the control rods by hand while disconnected. You already found a binding tail. Make sure the swash moves freely in all directions including up/down the main shaft.

KevinB

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05-01-2013 12:17 PM  5 years agoPost 35
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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thanks, i got all that. Alas the "on the cheap" upgrades have come back to bit me in the rass.

Strange how the gyro resetting stops all servos in order to protect one, and perhaps it's self, from burning up. Even 2 servos are better than none. Throttle still works after the gyro goes failsafe. Thankfully it's done so while on the ground the past two attempts at managing the puzzle. Just the previous statement tells me it's the inboard bec.

As great as the 3x gyros are some of them have turned out to be more trouble than they would be a benefit, chalk it up to teething pains.

Though, I would go with the Helicommand hs3-sx in a heartbeat on any larger helis. Heck, they have a ARBeastx on a Eflite Blade 300x to make a good swap. option options ohh what will I do.

Thanks for getting involved, hf has a blizzard of tarot gyro q&a in one of their forums, but I don't go there often. RR is a bit of an old boys club who know some of the new hk stuff is crappy,
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(I've never used blizzard in that context, haha, snow's gone up here, I dearly miss Cali, I miss the occasional blizzard too, you get used to those things and I'd fly in one if the heli could hold up. When the heli falls into snow it's like landing on a huge cushion of pillows, el, ohh, el)

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05-01-2013 12:33 PM  5 years agoPost 36
hootowl

rrProfessor

Garnet Valley, Pa.

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I'm flying a clone 450 with a bunch of Align parts. ICE 50 esc using internal bec. Hitec HS65mg servos. I hardly ever damage these servos in a crash. Running 3s with flybar. Common Sense motor.

ZERO issues

I have a -8 I will be installing soon.

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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05-01-2013 02:35 PM  5 years agoPost 37
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Strange how the gyro resetting stops all servos in order to protect one, and perhaps it's self, from burning up.
The gyro is not the item shutting down to protect itself. What would be shutting down to protect itself in an overcurrent situation is the REGULATOR (BEC) inside the ESC. When that goes away, so does the voltage output to ALL electronics. Overcurrent conditions can be fleeting, coming and going as loads change. As the condition is removed, the regulator comes out of its protective mode and begins supplying power again. This could be a repetitive process, as loads come and go.

BUT -- when the regulator shuts down, the electronics downstream will not be happy. When it comes back, the gyro does its normal power up thing, including initialization, the problem is compounded in that the system is moving while the gyro is initializing.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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05-02-2013 05:06 AM  5 years agoPost 38
RCHSF

rrKey Veteran

NC

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^^^Reset of power system is like trying to recover from a out of control car, after stearing wheel came off.

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05-04-2013 01:18 AM  5 years agoPost 39
icanfly

rrElite Veteran

ontario

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well well well, or not so well. Even after adding a Castle Creations 10 amp bec the problem remains. Someone over on hf took a pic of two monolithic caps soldered together where they should not,

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread...225#post4963225

Time to open mister zy and x up to inspect for internal complications

Yoyoyoyomah doc, what's your prognosis for the diagnosis, when the zyx-dash-S is no-good-o-siss?

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05-04-2013 01:54 AM  5 years agoPost 40
RCHSF

rrKey Veteran

NC

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That was me^^^

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