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HomeRC & PowerAircraftHelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › ZYX-s reset Sending Heli out of Control
04-23-2013 11:47 PM  5 years agoPost 1
icanfly

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ontario

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Tail boom (belt drive tail) is grounded, rx is working, servos are fine, but for some inane reason the gyro goes into freeze up with all servos stopped during flight. Kinda annoying since 3 pair of blades are toast, 4 actually.

Not sure if the rx is faulty, a servo is questionable, esc? just don't know, Everything seemed fine until I made a slight mistake and wandered into a steel leg in the garden, and it went to the same spot 3 out of 4 times to wreck another set of blades, nothing else.

I'm running a 7.4v 2300mah pack, but wonder whether there is a low voltage issue to send the rx to reset, or is it the esc, or the gyro? Very frustrating.

my throttle curves now are 0,30, 66, 80, 90. (something like that)
If it was set at 50 would this not mean only 50 percent of total voltage/rpm? Half of 7.4 is probably not enough to fuel the rx, esc, gyro, and motor.

In the future I'll be looking at a separate battery for the motor and one for the electronics .

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04-24-2013 11:59 AM  5 years agoPost 2
RCHSF

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NC

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Your running a 7.4v pack? Thats not enough to operate a 450 size motor, esc, servos, gyro. I'd say your drawing to much amps, and not enough volts either. How many amps is your ESC? Any excess binding on any of the head/tail or linkages or belt tension to tight will draw even more amps. And cause a brown out, and a reset of everything. Followed by a crash.

I've heard of at least one person fly a 450 on a 7.4v pack, but I don't know how reliable it is.

All I ever used on a 450 was a 11.1v 2200mah 25C or better.

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04-24-2013 12:49 PM  5 years agoPost 3
icanfly

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ontario

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esc is 45 amps.

I had a notion there would be an issue with this ganged motor/sensitive electronics style of power distribution just for the reasons you stated RCHSF.

The reset came on both 11.1 and the 7.4v. It may be throttle curve related because the motor would be drawing more amps after it has heated up from about a minute's worth of hover, which is when it does it's resetting every time.

What's a good way to separate the motor from the electronics and put it on it's own battery? this'll be interesting.

Do you think the brown outs would have ocurred also because my throttle (tx) was at 60 percent when the pitch was just hovering the heli? I might have the wrong idea about pitch curves in the tx. Should I not have the throttle at 80 percent at hover and 100 percent at full pitch?

It would be ideal to put the electronics on one 800mah 7,4 battery and put the motor on the 2300mah 7.4v.11.1.

On a side note, there's a tendency now to boost rpm into the 3000 range for 3d. If anyone read up on laminar flow it only becomes negligible when the surface to stationary air speed is about 400mph. Below that and there is laminar separation. That's where the blades are not biting the air effectively and why a heli becomes less effective to manage due to flutter, drag, turbulence, flapping, etc.

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04-24-2013 01:40 PM  5 years agoPost 4
KevinB

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Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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First off, stick with 3 cell. You are likely going into brownout territory with with a 2s pack if you don't have everything set up just right or you have older or low C rated batteries . With a 450 size heli, weight is your enemy, so I wouldn't really consider 2 separate packs either as 2 will always be heavier than one even if total MaH is the same.

What motor are you using ? What is it's KV ? How many tooth pinion? what kind of ESC ?(make/model) Are you running a separate BEC ?
What kind of radio/rx are you using ? (2.4 or 72MHz, brand?) How close is the Rx to the motor? What kind of lipo? How old? What C rating? What kind of servos? (make & model)

Sorry for all the questions but if you want good answers, we need good information to go on.

KevinB

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04-24-2013 01:43 PM  5 years agoPost 5
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Brown outs do not occur until 3.3 volts (well for the rx anyways, I am unsure about that FBL unit).

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-24-2013 03:22 PM  5 years agoPost 6
icanfly

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ontario

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3600kv, hobbywing platinum esc, no outboard bec, new 7.4v battery 30c, 11 tooth pinion, wait a minute, there's a pic of it in my gallery.

I think any brown out issues might actually come from my throttle curve. The bl motors hate running less than 75percent and heat up therefore causing more resistance while drawing more amps to maintain throttle, My dx7 2.4 throttle curve could be wrong.

Could you tell me if a proper setting for full idle, mid stick, at flat pitch is 80 percent please.

I took a look at the zyx thread on hf where servo choice was an issue with some guys. Mine are jr 65hs on swash and 65 on tail (for now), might be going all kst in the future.

One pleasant benefit to the heli from lower rpm was that the main and feathering shaft have not bent from eating grass when the heli reset while pitching into the lawn. It even spun out once. A bit of a bother losing blades for no other reason.

I have neighbors and the rpm at 11.1v is a bit intense. It'd be nice to practice with less whine from motor and gears, they can hear it lol.

In summary, I'm looking for the proper throttle curve, and info how to separate the motor from the electronics.

I don't need low voltage worries equal CRASH right now.

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04-24-2013 03:55 PM  5 years agoPost 7
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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The Hobbywing does not have a BEC does it???

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-24-2013 06:14 PM  5 years agoPost 8
icanfly

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ontario

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my prob could also come from a faulty servo to replace a faulty servo, dang. Any impact with dirt and the the servo is damaged. It was good while it lasted.

The rotation of the disc stopping at the tips pulls the front of the heli up and to the left putting extra force on the left servo. The blades catch and want to send it's kinetic energy through the heli rotating the chassis counter clockwise there-by snapping the main shaft forward at the clamps. Same thing happened with the flybar. Someone told me fbl crashes are really bad on servos because of the direct link to the clamp (hmm). Proof came when a link tore out at the the threaded rod on one occasion.

hw esc? don't know 100percent but I think it has internal bec.

One thing I was dealing with with my coax helis were how to lessen crash damage by defeating the weak spots and it's going the same on the 450. Whatever is learned on the smaller helis will be grafted to anything larger.

I hear the guys at zyx have an auto leveling (soft) update on the software for their units.

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04-24-2013 08:13 PM  5 years agoPost 9
RCHSF

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NC

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icanfly

For your TX on throttle curve in Normal Mode you want a linear curve. 0-25-50-75-100 (or similar) And your Idel Up's or Stunt Modes as some call them. (1) 100-85-90-85-100,(or similar) idel up (2) 100,100,100,100,100.

On your throttle hold, you want it to be linear. So when, if you hit TH, your blade will stay same pitch angle, you don't want an abrupt change in angle of attack of the blade.

On your Pitch curves. N,1,2 linear. Look up linear, if your not sure what it looks like.

Most people, don't use the settings in the radio for adjusting the blade pitch. They set it and leave it. All main blade adjustments are done at linkage rods. And thats it.

What I have suggested is just basic settings, some people may vary.

I hope I got that about right if not someone can correct me if I have made a mistake.

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04-25-2013 12:03 AM  5 years agoPost 10
icanfly

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ontario

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On your Pitch curves. N,1,2 linear. Look up linear, if your not sure what it looks like.
= straight line. The other advice is helpfull.

I was staying in idle up mode to fly, wasn't a real problem. I might experiment with 80 percent at flat pitch, 0, 40 80, 90, 100 with exponential.

Don't want to rush anything. With helis it's better to err on the side of caution.

Has no one run separate batteries on an all electric heli?

As well my Shuttle OS 36 is turning and it'll be running one day, it's there. Some kind of upgrade head will be needed to make it fly, most likely be fbl. Good for a scale bird.

(You know those soccer players who act injured and struggling during a game until the last rush on an opponents net to win? If you have any notions about my brain surgery english lol)

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04-25-2013 12:19 AM  5 years agoPost 11
RCHSF

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NC

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Yeah people run seperate battery pack on Bigger electric heli's to run rx, gyro, servos, etc, on 500 and up, mostly up. 600 to 700. But on 450's it's just not wise. I have a 450 myself. It just don't have the extra power to weight ratio to do it very good. It's best to use a 11.1v 2200mah'ish and a big a C rating as you can afford. And run a seperate bec with around 4-5 amps.

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04-25-2013 12:34 AM  5 years agoPost 12
icanfly

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ontario

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it's possible the esc shuts down because on 7.4 it is drawing a lot of amps to the motor. It would see a low voltage reading and failsafe.
seperate bec
Whats the circuit known as? for the bigger heli's to utilize two batteries? The pairing of an 7.4 800mah with a 2300mah for the motor balances the 450 heli out very well. Linear bec's (might be in the hw esc) need 11.1 to run everything and I read it's not recommended to go less voltage.

I suppose another way to limit rpm on 11.1 without inhibiting the motor would be with a governor.

Getting it straight before larger helis are taken on.

Alright, from what the forums are stating an external ubec is used with a separate battery to the battery input on a rx. The esc takes the throttle channel but the red wire is not connected. A google image shows the wiring but is unclear what plugs in to where on the rx.

http://www.castlecreations.com/prod...bec_wiring.html

Have cake? will eat.

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04-25-2013 01:06 AM  5 years agoPost 13
RCHSF

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NC

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You can plug a BEC in to any un-used channel they all are grounded, and hot the same, only thing different is the Sense wire. (Orange wire)...BEC not only for use with a separate battery. They can, and are used with just one battery. To replace the built in BEC in ESC's with one that can Handel and distribute amps better, and keep voltage steady. Yeah on a ESC with bec built in just unplug the red wire, if your running a separate bec.

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04-25-2013 01:20 AM  5 years agoPost 14
KevinB

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Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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If you are insisting on running low head speed, you could still run a 3s pack to allow the use of the built in bec, AND get the head speed you want. You would need an 8 tooth pinion.

According the RH HS calc, you could run the internal esc governor with the throttle flatlined at 80% in idle up, an 8 tooth pinion, and run a single 3s battery. According to the calc, this would give you the same RPM as running the 2s battery, with an 11 tooth pinion and un-governed.

KevinB

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04-25-2013 02:47 AM  5 years agoPost 15
icanfly

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ontario

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kevin, that's probably an option worth exploring to keep things simple, and I have several 3s 22mah packs which would also get longer flight times. I would want to know all the details ahead of rebuilding my Shuttle, it's fuel.

Btw what rpm would headspeed be if on a 8 tooth pinion from a 3500kv motor? By accident headspeed dropped extre----eeemely low during one hover last fall

Since my 450's are almost complete and there's a ton of things to do not heli related, a Hirobo 600 Shuttle I have can slowly become a completely operational heli (with a bit of cash and spare time). Too much heli anything and all else doesn't get done, but to moderate between the helis and priorities is the only way to be covering all the bases, tons of projects to finish.

The 7.4 bird would be the backyard low and slow going machine while another 450 I'm building would remain 3s 11.1v.

Upon reading more on the subject they say that the esc runs cooler with external bec.

Would I use the "battery" input on the rx to connect the bec then?

I' have to fly a pic of the piggy backed batteries, for future reference,

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04-25-2013 02:57 AM  5 years agoPost 16
KevinB

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Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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Head speed calculator can be found here:

http://www.readyheli.com/headspeed-calculator.html

KevinB

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04-25-2013 12:06 PM  5 years agoPost 17
icanfly

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ontario

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7.4v with a 3500kv motor, 11 tooth pinion nets average 1900 rpm.

It dawned on me that higher head speeds are getting nearer to plankers prop speeds, for the sake of 3d, but my backyard isn't big enough for more than a little movement and orientation hovering. 1800 rpm is plenty. The model heli is a heli, not a plank.

thanks, all in prep for the Shuttle, 'cause it's there.

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04-25-2013 12:30 PM  5 years agoPost 18
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Sounds to me that your BEC is not up to snuff. Even if the main pack drops to 2.5 VPC, that is still 5 volts total so the issue of brownout due to low pack voltage is mute as the Heli would not want to even get off the ground with 5volts. I would suggest either an external BEC (not the best choice due to space) or a better ESC with a better BEC built in. I saw many 7.4 volt 450 flights at 2012 OHB, it is doable.....Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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04-25-2013 01:28 PM  5 years agoPost 19
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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my throttle curves now are 0,30, 66, 80, 90. (something like that)
If it was set at 50 would this not mean only 50 percent of total voltage/rpm? Half of 7.4 is probably not enough to fuel the rx, esc, gyro, and motor.
First of all, varying the throttle setting does NOT affect the voltage going to your servos, gyro, and receiver. Even varying the throttle does not change the actual voltage going to the motor.

I just visited the Hobbywing site, they list a 40 amp Platinum ESC. This ESC has a built-in 3 amp BEC that will output either 5.25 or 6 volts, depending upon how you set it up. Since you are using only a 2S input (7.4 volts nominal), remember as the pack becomes depleted, that voltage under load will drop down to 6.0 volts for a fully discharged pack. The specs of the Hobbywing ESC don't state what the minimum input voltage is to maintain regulation of the 5.25/6.0 volt output. I would hope that the regulator simply doesn't shut down as its input voltage becomes very close to its programmed output voltage.

If you set it at 5.25 volts, your electronics will see 5.25 volts REGARDLESS of the throttle setting. The BEC is rated at 3 amps, but I'd be surprised if that is a continuous rating. I would suspect the BEC is good for 1.5-2.0 amps continuous, with peaks up to 3 amps. Even at three amps, your regulator is marginal for a FBL system.

The ability of your BEC to deliver adequate current in a FBL system is most likely marginal. In the past, most 450 sized ESCs with "3A" rated BECs were suitable for non-FBL helis. FBL systems with digital servos put a larger current demand on the power source, and it is beginning to appear that the average 3 amp rated BEC just no longer cuts it.

It is more than likely that your ESC's BEC is going into an overcurrent protective mode, causing it to shut down momentarily. Your solution most likely is to use a separate external regulator, powered by your main motor battery, to regulate your 7.4 volts input down to something the servos and other goodies will tolerate. Consider something like the Castle Creations BEC, typically rated at 5 amps with 10 amp peak capabiity.

-----

Before people jump all over me about the statement that changing the throttle doesn't change the voltage seen at the motor, the ESC controls motor speed by delivering a pulse-width modulated voltage signal to the motor windings. IF your ESC has a PWM setting of 12 kHz, voltage pulses (at the battery voltage, 7.4 volts in your case) are sent to the motor windings at a frequency of 12,000 cycles per second. The "on time" of each pulse is varied as you adjust the throttle. Low throttle settings drive very short duration pulses, high throttle settings drive longer pulses. The AVERAGE value of the voltage pulses is what makes the motor go faster or slower. The peak voltage is always at or near the raw battery input voltage.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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04-25-2013 01:46 PM  5 years agoPost 20
KevinB

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Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada

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No jumping here dkshema. I agree with your last post 95%

The only point I'll question is the need for an external BEC on a 450 FBL as a general statement. I've always used the internal BECs on all my 450 FBL machines and never had BEC overload/shutdown. I've run HS5065s and now DS95 cyclic servos. I've used Align, YGE, and Jazz ESCs.

KevinB

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