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Home🌌Off TopicsOff Topics Main Discussion › 787 Dreamliner Lithium battery fire
01-09-2013 08:58 PM  7 years ago
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jschenck

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La Vista, NE.

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787 Dreamliner Lithium battery fire
man, makes me a bit nervous to think Boeing engineers put lipo's in their aircraft without (evidently) proper safeguards

EDIT - title changed to reflect that the battery is a lithium type, probably not a Lithium Polymer. e.g. Boeing didn't use Nanotechs to start the APU - likely a spec built hard canister LiIon type canister pack.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Dreamliner.html

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01-09-2013 09:42 PM  7 years ago
ticedoff8

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Morgan Hill, CA. USA

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Someone tried to ship a Trex 700E in the checked baggage.
4 or 5 of those 12s packs can be hell.
LOL
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01-09-2013 10:47 PM  7 years ago
jschenck

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La Vista, NE.

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no - it's a lipo that is part of the aircraft! scary. It should be in a contained box with a fuse so it *can't* burn the aircraft. what would happen if that battery failed (fire) in flight !
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01-09-2013 11:28 PM  7 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Jumping way too quickly to what is an incorrect conclusion.

You should spend some time in the avionics and aircraft design world before making this statement:
man, makes me a bit nervous to think Boeing engineers put lipo's in their aircraft without (evidently) proper safeguards
You assume Lithium Polymer battery when the article you posted simply says "battery". I read the article several times and viewed the video which has no sound. I did NOT see any reference to the battery chemistry type.

[Other news stories DO state it was a Lithium Ion battery, one also says this is the first time LIon batteries have been used in an aircraft.]

Based on that, I can assume there was a great deal of scrutiny over the implementation and testing associated with the equipment, what appears to be one of the 787 Auxiliary Power Units (APU)].

You assume there were no proper safeguards in place.

You assume the unit that failed was designed by Boeing Engineers, and built by them. You really have no understanding how or where avionics in airplane come from, who makes them, or how they get qualified to be installed in an aircraft.

If you truly understood what it takes to get any form of avionics designed, tested, certified, and approved for use on an aircraft, especially one used for revenue flight, you would never even think of making those statements.
It should be in a contained box with a fuse so it *can't* burn the aircraft.
Fuses within LRU of an aircraft are simply not used. Circuit breakers, yes, but still not within the LRU itself. Breakers are part of the aircraft wiring installation, not individual LRU. The presence of a fuse in a circuit does not preclude the presence of a fire.

(LRU -- Line Replaceable Unit)
what would happen if that battery failed (fire) in flight !
So it failed on the ground, it still failed. "Smoke in the cockpit" IS a serious emergency, and will get not only the pilot's attention, but the attention of the airframer, the LRU manufacturer, and the FAA. There will be an investigation, there will be a full-root cause analysis performed, and a corrective action plan will be developed and implemented.

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If the battery WERE a lithium-based chemistry, it would more likely have been in the form of sealed cylindrical cells, not the foil-packaged LiPo we have all come to know and love. The subsystem would have undergone extensive design analysis, review, Safety of Flight verification testing, and the full range of Environmental testing as specified by Boeing for that subsystem. The subsystem is required to meet stringent requirements prior to be being certified as flightworthy before it can be installed on that aircraft.

-----

I have been employed as an avionics Design Engineer for the past 26 years and know what it takes to get a product from conception through design, testing, certification, and installation on military, commercial, and private aircraft.

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The news story in and of itself is written in the tone of a "hit-piece", using a large amount of innuendo and inflammatory rhetoric. "Problem plagued", "delayed deliveries", "one in a series of mechanical failures", then goes on to provide a laundry list of "other failures", including making sure we knew an airline had "grounded" its planes recently. I suspect the writer of the article, writing for the UK Daily Mail, may have a vested interest in Airbus. The 787 is a new design, extremely complex aircraft in its early stages of full production.
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Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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01-09-2013 11:45 PM  7 years ago
classic

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All over the place!

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They oviously were using a Castle speed control!

The real question is, do you think Castle will warrentee the airplane??
Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care!
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01-10-2013 12:55 AM  7 years ago
JasonJ

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North Idaho

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There isn't an airliner made that hasn't had teething pains on introduction. Dreamliner has had some minor issues. Past new airliners have crashed and killed people during teething pains so I would say it is doing okay. The Dreamliner is so far advanced over any other airliner I would be more surprised if there wasn't issues initially. This is pretty new cutting edge stuff here.
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01-10-2013 01:33 AM  7 years ago
SSN Pru

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Taxachusetts

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What an ignorant OP! Open your eyes and learn to understand what you are reading.Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!
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01-10-2013 01:56 AM  7 years ago
Leif

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USA

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It was the APU starter battery.

Yes, it's based on Lithium chemistry, but is a hard-cased battery.

Yes, it appears to have caught fire.

Regardless of whatever testing/certification processes were employed, I'm still not very comfortable with the use of high-capacity lithium batteries for commercial aircraft.

Leif
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01-10-2013 04:10 AM  7 years ago
jschenck

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La Vista, NE.

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Dave - I respect and understand where you are coming from. I do have a laymen appreciation for the effort it takes to certify components on a commercial aircraft though I have no first hand experience. I do have some experience with GA aircraft since I helped my dad with maintenance on his Cherokee 140 including the annual.

true, the article did not state the chemistry of the battery that failed. I ran across that information elsewhere.

BUT - fact remains. There are not very many of this aircraft type in service yet. There are a number of reported electrical failures. It's pretty clear there was a major failure of a battery pack on this particular aircraft. Does bring into question the certification process, especially since the 787 was years behind in schedule for certification, Boeing reportedly "betting the company" on this aircraft, (though I'd say that's an overstatement) so I would imagine there was intense pressure to get is certified and shipped.

I know there is going to be initial issues with any new aircraft type especially when it's fielding new design concepts. Certainly some examples of problems with the Airbus aircraft from a few years ago.

My initial gut reaction to hearing about a lithium based battery pack having a melt down in an airframe was/is "how is that even allowed to happen from a design standpoint"

Car manufactures have been very reluctant to put lithium based batteries in their design. I think it's only in the last year or two that major car manufactures have started shipping hybrids that use lithium based packs instead of nickel based packs.
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01-10-2013 04:46 AM  7 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Searching the web produces results that indicate LiFePo4 batteries are being introduced into not only commercial aircraft as starter batteries for APUs, but also for use in Biz Jets and even Military Applications.

Old -- from 2007:

http://ir.a123systems.com/releasede...eleaseID=403104

Older -- from 2006:

http://www.concordebattery.com/lion2.php

Apparently current:

http://www.quallion.com/sub-sp-main.asp#

Apparently current:

http://www.aerolithium.com/

The FAA and the RTCA are also addressing use of lithium batteries:

http://www.nbaa.org/ops/safety/hazm...m-batteries.doc

The Rule from the FAA allowing the use of LiFePo4 batteries on the 787, and the steps that must be taken and met to meet certification requirements:

https://www.federalregister.gov/art...ry-installation

Time moves on. Weight is king on today's airframes. Less of it means better fuel economy, more available usable lifting ability...

-----

If you are truly concerned about lithium technology batteries installed in aircraft, next time you get on your favorite airline's plane to go on a business trip, or a vacation, take a look around you. Cell phones, laptop computers, tablets, hand held games, all sorts of other carry-on luggage carrying consumer electronics. Most of those high-tech tools and toys are powered by COMMERCIAL GRADE Li Ion batteries, quite often NOT well maintained by their owners, and in some cases, charged using the wrong charger. Ask just how much you should worry about that....
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Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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01-10-2013 06:42 AM  7 years ago
KC

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WA

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We rode a 787 last month, could care less if a starter APU battery catches fire in flight and makes a little smoke, it's not needed to get through the flight, what is needed is all that extra space on the thing for tall guys like me, that was really nice!

Got to love journalists, one on your side is great, one against you is annoying.
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01-12-2013 01:57 AM  7 years ago
raisinjack

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SW OHIO

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ok it happened. stuff does happen. it is still not like the A380 wing crack deal that grounded the fleet!
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01-12-2013 12:24 PM  7 years ago
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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787 Chief engineer....

Watch at YouTube

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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01-12-2013 12:26 PM  7 years ago
fla heli boy

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cape coral, florida

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unicef can afford a new 787 eh???
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01-12-2013 12:31 PM  7 years ago
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Airbus has it's own issues... the big white elephant A380's got wing cracking.

Airbus is so sure their's will go down, they make them amphibious LOL...

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep
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01-12-2013 06:25 PM  7 years ago
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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unicef can afford a new 787 eh???
No, the picture happened to have cropped off the two words "We Support".

But as for the U.N. They're about as corrupt an organization that ever was, so maybe they could swing one.
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Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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01-17-2013 04:23 AM  7 years ago
jschenck

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La Vista, NE.

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I hope Boeing and the operators figure this out quickly and solve this issue, get it behind them. 2nd failure reported today.

This aircraft is and should be seen as a crowning achievement for American aviation manufacturing. I don't like to see the press, but I think a quick resolution would make Boeing shine.

If this is the worst of the problems for the 787, then it should be a resounding success.
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01-17-2013 12:01 PM  7 years ago
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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They are retro fitting smoke stacks to Dreamliner cabins as we speakTeam- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here
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01-17-2013 01:10 PM  7 years ago
fla heli boy

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cape coral, florida

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"damned Hobby King lipos"......
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01-17-2013 09:59 PM  7 years ago
nitro fun

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Oc ca

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Maybe someone forgot to connect the blinky
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