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12-05-2012 04:02 PM  5 years agoPost 241
WBFAir

rrApprentice

Stamford, CT - USA

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I'll admit I don't know all the details as to what makes them let it happen to some slight degree sometimes, but basically suspect it has a lot to do with when other dealers complain about it and or really too, how far down they go.

Which you say, well then that's their fault, but really if Horizon didn't do all they were doing with MAP to begin with, including turning so many in to dumb stores that only make money selling boxes and bags, then wouldn't have the LHS guys in that position where they need all others to sell MAP just to make money.

Btw did just check and ampdraws price is now $279.99

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12-05-2012 04:23 PM  5 years agoPost 242
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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How does one, exactly, "preorder" an mCPX these days? Those things are available everywhere.
My post was referring to a year-and-a-half ago, a month before the mCPx was released to the public.

What is the Eflite Blade "Pro" series all about?

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12-05-2012 04:32 PM  5 years agoPost 243
mbarhsi

rrApprentice

Flagstaff, AZ

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Btw did just check and ampdraws price is now $279.99
Yes, it is. That's strange. Usually, it's significantly less. I just checked the 450X and they have it for $407 versus $499 at Horizon. That's a significant difference.

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12-05-2012 04:33 PM  5 years agoPost 244
WBFAir

rrApprentice

Stamford, CT - USA

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Oh boy now you did it.

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12-05-2012 04:35 PM  5 years agoPost 245
mbarhsi

rrApprentice

Flagstaff, AZ

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What is the Eflite Blade "Pro" series all about?
There are no more E-flite branded helis from Horizon. It's all Blade, now.

The "Pro" series is in reference to the video linked in this thread from HH/Blade about their new heli release that's supposed to be announced today or tomorrow. It's rumored to be a "real" 6s 550-600 class heli that very well be made available as a kit versus their standard BNF stuff. I'm betting it's basically just a stretched 500X with some of this "Pro" flavored seasoning, whatever that is, sprinkled on...

Personally, I think HH/Blade wants to go big in the heli arena and start competing with their own homegrown airframes. This new heli looks to be the start of that since current HH heli pilots fly whatever airframes they want. HH/Blade doesn't have a competitive heli on the market...yet... This could actually be the start of a very good thing for them. It will be interesting to see. They already made a pretty big splash at IRCHA with the 500X competition.

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12-05-2012 04:39 PM  5 years agoPost 246
mbarhsi

rrApprentice

Flagstaff, AZ

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Oh boy now you did it.
Did what? Most anybody who's been on the heli forums asking about prices knows about Ampdraw. And, they're not the only ones doing it, either. You honestly thinking Horizon doesn't know about it?

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12-05-2012 05:11 PM  5 years agoPost 247
WBFAir

rrApprentice

Stamford, CT - USA

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Did what? Most anybody who's been on the heli forums asking about prices knows about Ampdraw. And, they're not the only ones doing it, either. You honestly thinking Horizon doesn't know about it
Well first of all that was meant as tongue and cheek so breath.

But to explain, in truth I doubt Horizon really cares about it in the direct sense at all basically what any one sells any of their products for, doesn't matter directly to them as they sold it and get the same for it no matter what.

Problem is if or when other dealers threaten to leave them or give them crap about and or not due their part as well in the price fixing thing if they don't come down on the ones doing it.

And then they care.

Basically would take a really long time to go into it all as it's very complicated, but the straight MAP thing is not all that uncommon of a practice. The main idea is to not allow the price of something to get so low that it affects its perceived value and if used correctly, is not all that bad of a thing.

But what Horizon really does with it is say thats what they are doing so they don't get sued, but what they really do is uses it to keep the LHS owners happy by making sure the majority of them keep making that easy money.

This thus in turn keeps them wanting to sell more and if possibly only Horizons stuff as no one else will do that, or at least as hard for them as Horizon does, and thus then they both win.

But what that does bad for us and I feel the hobby too is that one, completely removes the act of choice to us and that the better product wins because it is that, as no one ever see's those.

Then two, also forces us as so many do stick with it to pay the inflated MAP prices they come up with, as what you gonna do if thats the price 99% pf them are charging.

Anyway in the end like I said, when an where this is allowed and as to why all that is done for some is not info I can comment on as they don't talk about it, but it is very very few that are allowed to this and not typically for long especially once the word gets out, and for sure the basic reason I know those particular places I spoke of had what happen to them happen.

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12-05-2012 05:24 PM  5 years agoPost 248
mbarhsi

rrApprentice

Flagstaff, AZ

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But to explain, in truth I doubt Horizon really cares about it in the direct sense at all basically what any one sells any of their products for, doesn't matter directly to them as they sold it and get the same for it no matter what.
Boy, are you ever wrong... Do you really think Horizon wouldn't rather have someone buy a 450X directly from them for almost a HUNDRED dollars more?

They sell their products to their vendors at a below MAP fixed price, but they'd MUCH rather sell them on their website at FULL MAP price. When a vendor starts selling their stuff at or near cost, it takes sales away from HH and, historically, they get all pissy and cut vendors off. Comprende? I don't know how certain vendors that are widely known to do this continue to "get away" with it, though. Oh well...good for us while it lasts!

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12-05-2012 05:30 PM  5 years agoPost 249
WBFAir

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Stamford, CT - USA

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Not quite sure I understand what you are taking about but remember that Horizon is first and foremost a distributor and was long before they made stuff.

Not that I have the numbers in front of me to prove this but would very much say that what they make selling themselves directly to the public is chicken feed to the volumes they sell to the vendors.

Plus that is a 100% guaranteed sale no matter what happens to it after that.

Would guess those sales would make up about 75 to 80% of their sales so who you would care about keeping happy more.

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12-05-2012 05:40 PM  5 years agoPost 250
mbarhsi

rrApprentice

Flagstaff, AZ

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Not quite sure I understand what you are taking about
What's so hard to understand?

Say Horizon sells a 450X to a vendor for $399 (or whatever cost price). The vendor, obviously, wants to make a little profit and sells it for, say, $430. That's still a great deal for the customer versus buying from Horizon at $499.

Horizon only makes $399 out of that deal, no matter what that vendor sells it for.

If Horizon sold that same 450X directly off their website to a customer, they'd make $499...the listed price as of today. One hundred dollars more. If that vendor starts selling so many that Horizon sees their direct sales dropping, that gives them incentive to threaten/cut off that vendor if they don't raise their prices up towards Horizon's pricing. And, it isn't just the ONE vendor doing this.

Seems pretty simple to understand to me...

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12-05-2012 05:47 PM  5 years agoPost 251
dw12

rrApprentice

pennellville new york u.s.

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I saw an EBay ad for a "new" Eflite 700 size BLS motor,I think a Blade 700 may be a tough sell.

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12-05-2012 05:54 PM  5 years agoPost 252
WBFAir

rrApprentice

Stamford, CT - USA

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I think I understand what you're trying to tell me, but and it's hard to say as its like I say I know all they are thinking.

But remember and to use your numbers, they sell the 450X for $399.00 to a vendor but that is still a profit for them that is lets say $25.00 for all it costs to get to them.

Now yeah they can and do sell it for more on their website for $499.00 and so that makes them $125.00 instead of only $25.00

But the big dif here is that dealer just doesn't buy one but eight of them and they too for sure know he will for anything they make in the future, and so do the 5 others in the 50 mile radius of where the one guy who bought that from them lives.

So who is Horizon really making the more money from and thus cares about supporting?

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12-05-2012 05:58 PM  5 years agoPost 253
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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Yes they have their problems (MAP for example), but Horizon Hobby is infinitely better than Great Planes.

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12-05-2012 06:06 PM  5 years agoPost 254
WBFAir

rrApprentice

Stamford, CT - USA

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Most all retail products and systems have MAP, but don't use it like and as a key support thing among all the other things like the way Horizon does.

For example, most of Great Planes stuff is not over priced junk, and or stuff that they are trying to get dealers to push instead of something better.

Basically Horizons game is a fairly complex one and is not just based on only one part but a combining of a lot of the stuff they do that all relies on and supports the other.

That is kinda why again, is such a important thing to support all of them as they all work as a team and if one of them ever stops working or holding up its end, such as the vendors not wanting to do their part of the control of the price, it can greatly effect the whole system.

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12-05-2012 06:10 PM  5 years agoPost 255
mbarhsi

rrApprentice

Flagstaff, AZ

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That may be true about the LHS's, WBFAir. I don't really do the LHS thing myself even though I'm well within a 50 mile radius. It's still an hour round trip and I can order the same stuff cheaper and without our ridiculous sales tax...and do it in my underwear.

Besides, my LHS usually just tells me they don't have it...but they can order it. Great...so can I...and save the trip...

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12-05-2012 06:17 PM  5 years agoPost 256
WBFAir

rrApprentice

Stamford, CT - USA

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Yeah I get this too and due to the internet is actually another big part of this in that as in a very effective way as they all do their part, it keeps the numbers from dropping in say lower cost areas.

I mean I literally have had it said to me from guys at a LHS that they wouldn't lower the price on something as they know any where people go and even on the internet, that its pretty impossible that you will be able to find it cheaper and they know it will stay that way as Horizon will make sure of it.

Ergo, the LHS is happy, ergo he keeps buying HH stuff over anything else.

The more they buy and keep other stuff off the shelf, the more Horizon makes even if its crap.

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12-05-2012 06:29 PM  5 years agoPost 257
mbarhsi

rrApprentice

Flagstaff, AZ

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What hobby stores are there around you in Stamford? I used to live in Naugatuck and there wasn't jack around for hobby stores with R/C aircraft.

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12-05-2012 06:39 PM  5 years agoPost 258
WBFAir

rrApprentice

Stamford, CT - USA

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There's a few with in I'd say about a 50m radius.

Have to remember Stamford an lower Fairfield CT as a whole is a pretty dense area compared to a lot of the rest of CT.

But off the top of my head I would say there are about 4 to 5 and forgive me for not listing all the names and address as would take me some time.

But they're all hard core HH places and actually if you want to know more, could just go to a stam zip at Horizons site as I just did and looks like it was like 60? ! :-0

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12-05-2012 06:50 PM  5 years agoPost 259
mbarhsi

rrApprentice

Flagstaff, AZ

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Oh, I know. I worked in Stratford at SIK. And, 50 miles in ANY direction is a haul in CT with the decrepit, retarded road structure and traffic. No way I'd drive that far to a not-so LHS. I wouldn't even drive that far here in Arizona and we're wide open!

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12-05-2012 07:01 PM  5 years agoPost 260
WBFAir

rrApprentice

Stamford, CT - USA

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Yeah I know that place well although never been in, was an interesting note that it mean a key advantage for me getting my private ticket though as I really impressed the FAA guy about to avoid it as its traffic representation is barely visible on the maps as there is so much other there.

Got mine out Sikorsky Memorial AP in Straft btw. Both parents flew out of there too and also worked out of the old plant across the street back when it was Chance Vought and they made the F4Us there. Just was mentioning that as that was the org Sikorsky place later before they moved up by the Merrit.

But yeah traffic is just as much a mess all over here now as ever with 10 times more people here.

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