RunRyder RC
WATCH
 1 page 1234 views POST REPLY
HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsbavarianDEMON › Vario Turbine Large Lama issues with Helicomand HCX3 Extreme
11-12-2012 01:44 AM  7 years ago
Topic Vote0Post 1
gonzalom

rrVeteran

Northern California

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Vario Turbine Large Lama issues with Helicomand HCX3 Extreme
Guys, I been having an issue with my Helicomand HCX3 Extreme and I hope with the very smart people here in the forum you guys might be able help me to find a solution. If you do and decide to come to HSM 2013 you would be my guest at the event and I would make sure you get a ride at no cost on one of the full size helos coming to the event!

So here is how we start…. over a year ago I started flying the Lama with the HC3X Extreme. The results had been simply fantastic! The lama flies like a dream on rails. This is a 9ft rotor diameter turbine powered helo and with a weight of 48lbs. I noticed sometimes there was a little jump (bump) in the collective for about a fraction of a second. The little bump might appear once or twice during the flight….. and sometimes nothing in the next 4 flight. My Lama is running on Spektrum DSM2 on my JR 12X radio with high voltage JR receiver and all servos are JR HV as well. The system runs on 2packs, 2S lithium Ions batteries from Duralite with 5200Mha capacity on each pack.

I contact my good friends at Capton and they requested to provide them with my HC3X serial number and apparently I had a very old unit that didn’t have the sonic suppressor inside plus the unit couldn’t be firmware upgradable unless I send it all the way to Germany. I bought immediately a new unit that has all the latest components and ready for firmware upgrades via the web. I setup the new unit in the lama, proceed with all the programing including the firmware upgrade to the latest. I test the Lama and the bump are now more frequent than before. I contact Helicomand and they sent me a new unit… just in case...... same problem. Our friends at Helicomand came to my HSM 2012 event determined to help me to fix this issue but we didn’t have any inmediate remedy at that time….. I flew during the event an yes a few time the bump appeared too.

After the event I did a few changes to try to isolate the problem….. this is what I did so far:
* Ground the system and spray antistatic in some of the moving components…… same results.
* Lower the high voltage to 5.4 volts via regulators…… same results.
* Bring the system back to high voltage and change to a brand new JR receiver capable of DSMX….. same results.
* Re bind the system to my transmitter on DSM 2 with the new reciver …..same results.
* Re bind to a different JR12X transmitter but this time bind as DSMX….. same results.

I running out of options as you can see… and before I decide to put a completely different FBL system I am willing to try a few more options. The reason I haven’t jump to another FBL system is because when HC3X doesn’t have the jump the lama is just incredible how well she flies. Our friend at Capton suggested trying on a Futaba gear… and that would be a big change for me… and I don’t have anything on Futaba. This issue was known by Capton but was fix on latest firmware’s upgrades… unfortunately not for my Lama.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Gonzalo
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
11-12-2012 02:19 AM  7 years ago
89X-CELL60

rrNovice

Queen Creek, AZ

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Hello Gonzalo,

I'm a bit reluctant to give a suggestion, for if it hurts your Lama I would have to give you the keys to my Miata .

I have had only JR radios since the Century 7 radio from Circus Hobbies. How's that for dating myself . But, I only run Futaba servos since JR stopped making the 4131's. But, that's not the point. I was wondering if you have all your servos wires bundled together going from the HCX3 to the cyclic/collective servos that are controlling your swashplate? This only happened on my Logo 10(electric, I know) but when I had the wires go to the reciever separately I did not have the glitch that would "bounce" the heli in a hover. It was intermittent like you are stating.

Just a thought.

David

Typos courtesy of my i-pad
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
11-12-2012 02:31 AM  7 years ago
teamdavey2001

rrApprentice

Sunnyvale, California, USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Gonzalo,

For what it's worth:

https://rc.runryder.com/t691733p1/

Regards,

Jim
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
11-12-2012 03:08 AM  7 years ago
gonzalom

rrVeteran

Northern California

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Interesting David and I can give it a try as they are all bundle right now.

Thank you Jim! I was already aware of the link you provided me but apparently the for those cases the bump was fixed via the firmware updates but no for my case. I know you being such an incredible resource for complex electronics you might have some ideas coming soon

Thank you guys let see if we v=can nail this one down.

Gonzalo
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
11-12-2012 03:45 AM  7 years ago
Eco8gator

rrElite Veteran

Palm Beach, FL

MyPosts All Forum Topic
I would try to switch from using the satellites direct to the fbl system to using the system with a standard Rx.

You are only noticing issues on pitch. Note, collective is one of the few inputs that goes "directly" to the servos. There could be twitches in the roll and pitch but the control system would inherently filter those momentary spikes out.

I am unsure as to how perfect the satellite data stream is and I am unsure as to how perfect the HC processes the data. I have to assume they used the correct clock(based on baud rate) to have a enlargeable error when processing the serial data coming from the satellite.

I have seen this bump myself when setting the system up using Satellite but have not seen it when using a standard Rx.

Note, the units I did setup were some of the first gen, I am unsure what was addressed in the new updates.

Last, if it was my 10K+ turbine and I saw a twitch, I would have takin that unit out and tested the snot out of it on a beater heli until until the problem was resolved. Do not fly your machine with this issue!!! Figure out the problem on something cheap and then try it out.

C
Xera Motors
ProBar
Minicopter
Thunder Power
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
11-12-2012 10:35 AM  7 years ago
lubepaso

rrNovice

Milan, Italy

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Hi Gonzalo,
unfortunately I can't help you for the Spectrum part.
I'm a Futaba owner.
I used to have issues both in the cyclic and in the tail of my Vario Lama. I solved the issues by moving the links to the trailing edge and electronically phasing the rotor.
I also used a double voltage output system with all HV power servo pins connected to the 6V of that regulator, and the HC3-SX with the receiver connected to the 5.5 output.
The cyclic is now working smoothly. I only have to fix the tendency to float, but that is related to the right mix of pitch of the rotor and gain of the helicommand.
If you need other details I will be more than happy to send you pics or info.
Hope it helps
Luigi
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
11-12-2012 06:09 PM  7 years ago
Jockobadger

rrApprentice

Snoqualmie, Washington USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Luigi,

I'm not perfectly familiar with the tail drive set up on your machine. I understand it's a metal drive line with bearing blocks, but is there any cover or casing over the driveline itself? Have you considered grounding the drive line? I had similar collective "jump" movements on a wire-drive 600 and Captron thought it might be static build-up. Don't know if that's even possible here, but i grounded my tail "boom" (Lattice G-46 with a brass tubular driveline cover and it seems to have solved the problems completely. Just FYI, the behaviour I was seeing was minute collective jumps up and then back into control position. It was disconcerting and obviously should not have been happening. I was also using V115 at the time and I believe they did something about that issue in V117. All my HC3SX are now running on 117. Also, I had the same problem on a Mikado 500 that destroyed the machine - that was before I realized it was even happening. One minute - flight smooth as silk, the next minute, an uncontrolled, full throttle vertical "descent into terrain." I'll rebuild eventually because I love the way the thing flys, but will probably use a Microbeast in it.
Century Bell 47 III, RCA,700 UH-1N, Hirobo Lama, Logo 500, Logo 400, Trex 550e, HC3SX, Kontronic
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
11-12-2012 06:22 PM  7 years ago
gonzalom

rrVeteran

Northern California

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Good points Guys! keep it coming!

I don't run the satelites to the HC3X. I use the loom conection to my HV JR rec 1222.

I am contemplating the idea to try the Helicomand Rigid per friends suggestions. Anybody with HC Rigid program you are using in your Lama? Also can you run the HC Rigid at 8.4 volts (2S lipo) ? as I have everything in HV?

I am also thinking to try the Vbar silver stuff too!

Gonzalo
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
11-12-2012 09:25 PM  7 years ago
lubepaso

rrNovice

Milan, Italy

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Hi Jockobadger,
The tail is fully grounded since the entire structure is metal, and all electronics are connected to it.
Coming from belt driven tail helis (Protos) I also checked the connection and it's OK. I disassembled again all the tail pitch system and lube it. Now it's silky smooth. I am waiting for a non rainy weekend to test it before progressing in the scale details during next winter.
I have ready a VStabi, a BeastX and a Futaba CGY to use, although it would be a pity to replace the HC3-SX.
I will post my test results
Luigi
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
11-13-2012 11:23 AM  7 years ago
DEMONjoe

rrApprentice

Germany

MyPosts All Forum Topic
As far as I can see, this is all stuff we discussed with Danny a month ago So in case anything of this works out (and I am still sure it will), save 2 seats for us next time finally CAPTRON Electronic GmbH
- bavarianDEMON/HeliCommand Support Team -
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
11-13-2012 12:57 PM  7 years ago
fastflyer20

rrKey Veteran

N. Tonawanda, NY

MyPosts All Forum Topic
My HC cyclic jump was fixed when two changes were made, so I am not sure if one or both contributed to the problem. On a recommendation from NGK, I used a different resistor plug. The jumping was fixed when I changed back to the original plug and moved all wiring further away from the plug wire.

So I am wondering if you are getting interference and is there anything you can do to better isolate your wiring.
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
11-13-2012 01:12 PM  7 years ago
F1 Rocket

rrKey Veteran

Melbourne, Florida USA

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Hi Gonzalo,

One thing you could try is changing the servos, I had a similar problem a few years ago with a different FBL system. At the time I was using Futaba BLS451 and changing to JR 8717 fixed it. There was nothing wrong with the original servos. It was just the particular combo of equipment used resulted in an occasional servo jump. I used the 451's without issue in another machine. I know it is expensive to change this out so I will offer this. I will send you a set of Futaba or MKS servos to try, If the problem persists you can send them back. Please contact me at the shop if you want to try this.
Danny - DemonAero Support Team
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
11-13-2012 07:49 PM  7 years ago
gonzalom

rrVeteran

Northern California

MyPosts All Forum Topic
Danny,

Thank you for your generous offer! before I accept I am planning to try a few other options first. Taking out the high end servos in my Lama would be lots of work. I already spent tons of hours addressing this issue. Changing the servos doesn’t guarantee me that would fix the problem at all. I don’t use Futaba or MK servos as JR has proved to me to be 100% reliable in all my choppers and jets.

I do believe this is the HC3X issue alone as the HC3X has demonstrated in the past having issue with acoustics with turbine setups and you guys did some changes physically and in the software to try to fix them. Some worked out and some hasn’t as in my case.

We know the physical changes Captron has done to the HC3X from a foam suppressor inside the unit and outside hood. I would like to know what you guys did in the firmware to address the bump in the past. Perhaps the firmware engineer needs to take once again a close look at the code that can be address in the next firmware update?

I really would like to stick with Helicomand but you guys telling me to switch receivers, transmitters and servos is not what I am looking for.

I have numerous recommendations to try the HC Rigid and that I would consider as the last attempt before I move out to other FBL systems.

Gonzalo
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
12-08-2012 09:55 PM  7 years ago
gonzalom

rrVeteran

Northern California

MyPosts All Forum Topic
OK Guys here we go! I tested today my Lama with the Vbar Silverline using the 5.3 pro software and all collective bumps I had before with the HC3X are 100% gone….. The main head felt very very nice and the tail was wagging a little bit but mostly was fixed with the setup. I did 2 full tanks of testing and no collective bumps. I have the Vbar Gyro exactly in the same place it used to be for the HC3X and nothing have change in the helicopter except for the change for the new Gyro system. I had the log running and checking for vibrations via my tablet (Bluetooth) and vibration where close to zero. I did move around but I could not try flying full speed as the FOG we had was very dense here in the Bay Area. Once we get some better weather we can try the Vbar full potential….. so far excellent!

Gonzalo
SHARE  PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 1 page 1234 views POST REPLY
HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsbavarianDEMON › Vario Turbine Large Lama issues with Helicomand HCX3 Extreme
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 8  Topic Subscribe

Saturday, July 4 - 7:21 pm - Copyright © 2000-2020 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online