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› The iCharger 4010 is coming.....
10-26-2012 04:13 PM  5 years agoPost 21
Auddiss

rrNovice

CT

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Wow sounds like a serious charger!!

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10-26-2012 04:23 PM  5 years agoPost 22
Kiba

rrApprentice

CA

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Ace, I showed that the charger can't achieve it's full rated (wattage-limited) power charging 6S packs; with 6S packs you are limited by the maximum output amperage limit (40A per channel individually or 70A synchronous).

To hit the absolute maximum power output of the charger (wattage limit) requires charging 9S packs minimum in dual-channel or a 7S pack minimum in synchronous mode.

If you only intend to charge 6S packs you're limited by the amperage limits set in the charger software and not by the overall maximum wattage.

For all calculations I'm assuming about 4.16V/cell because this is where I remember my 3010 iCharger switching over from CC to CV, so beyond 4.16V it will start decreasing charge rate for the CV phase, anything under that it will be running at your specified amperage.

Maximum 4010 output capability in dual channel mode charging 6S packs:

25V(6S) x 40A max charge rate x 2 channels = 2000 watts charge output power

2000 watts * 1.15 (efficiency losses) = 2300 watt power supply needed

2300 watts / 65A input current limit = 36 volt @ 65A minimum power supply required

The scenario above will max out and probably trip the breaker of a 20A 120V circuit assuming you have an active power factor correction power supply. If all you charge is 6S packs you can max out the charger with 3 65A server power supplies in series for 36S. If you can feed the charger with 48V input the input amperage requirement will drop and the charger will probably run cooler.

Another way to calculate, this time assuming you have a 15A 120V outlet and want to see how fast you can charge without tripping the 15A circuit breaker:

15A x 120V = 1800 watts

1800 watts * 15% efficiency loss in power supply and charger = 1530 watts available charge power

1530 watts / 25V(6S) = 61.2A charge rate possible in synchronous mode

1530 watts / 2 (dual channel) / 25V(6S) = 30.6A charge rate possible on both channels simultaneously for 6S packs

Another calculation for us field charging guys that use Honda or Yamaha 2000 generators, both of which are rated at ~1600VA continuous output:

1600VA * .98 power factor (a good number for APFC power supplies) = 1568 watts available from the generator

1568 watts * .85 (15% efficiency loss in power supplies & charger) = 1333 watts available for charging output power

1333 watts / 25V (6S) = 53.3A charge rate in synchronous mode for 6S packs

Or, 26.6A per channel simultaneously for 6S packs

For the field charging scenario listed above, you could get away with a 24VDC / 65A power supply which would be right at the continuous output capability of the generator and also be at the 65A maximum input current limit of the charger.

1568 watts max generator & power supply / 65A charger input current limit = 24.1 VDC power supply voltage needed @ 65A max input current.

It looks like Progressive RC just added the Meanwell RSP-2000-48 which is probably going to be the best (albeit expensive) power supply option for 120V use; it will work on 110-120V and has 2000 watts maximum power output. It will almost max out a household 20A 120V circuit, it will overload a 15A 120V household circuit, and it will easily overload a Honda or Yamaha 2000 generator if you try to charge at the power supply capability which is beyond the generator capability.

Some of the 48VDC blade server power supplies are a viable inexpensive option but all the ones I've found so far require 200-240VAC input which rules out field charging for those of us with 120VAC generators. The Meanwell is a little more versatile and will work from 90-264VAC input but you pay a price for that versatility.

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10-26-2012 05:46 PM  5 years agoPost 23
JKos

rrProfessor

Redondo Beach, CA

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At some point a charger becomes so powerful that it simply outstrips reasonable power input capabilities such as outlet circuits just as the calculations above are showing. What is the actual advantage of a single powerful charger such as the iCharger 4010 over two or more next-level-down chargers? Just how many packs need to be in parallel on one charger versus two chargers?

- John

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10-26-2012 06:58 PM  5 years agoPost 24
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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I haven't worked out the details on paper yet, but it appears two PL8's may be much more versatile than one 4010.

  

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10-26-2012 07:03 PM  5 years agoPost 25
Kiba

rrApprentice

CA

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John,

You can use the 4010 as dual chargers and just set your charge rates appropriately to max out whatever your input power capability is.

Right now I have a pair of Hyperion Super Duos; I can run one at the full 1000 watts output power and the second at about 50% power from the same 120V circuit.

I'm thinking of selling my pair of Super Duo charging stations and getting a single 4010 to replace them. I can then max the capacity of the 120V outlet with a single charger and step down to a single charging station rather than having two as I do currently.

As it stands now I can fit my Yamaha generator and only 1 of my Super Duo charging stations in the car. The single Super Duo doesn't quite max out my Yamaha generator so I'm not turning packs as fast as I could be if I were to run at the maximum 1600VA output of the generator. I could if I drag both of my Super Duo charging stations to the field but I don't have the room in my car.

If I switch to a single 4010 I can then max out the capacity of my generator and only have to drag one charge station to the field which I do have the room for.

I think the 4010 is going to be about the biggest charger in terms of output wattage that is practical; it's already beyond what a standard US outlet can handle and it's very close to the limit of what international 240V outlets can handle.
I haven't worked out the details on paper yet, but it appears two PL8's may be much more versatile than one 4010.
If charging from a single 120V outlet you're limited by the power available, but if you have the proper circuit and power supply to feed it at maximum I'd have to give a slight edge to the 4010.

The PL8 is capable of 1344 watts or 40A output (whichever limit is hit first.)

The 4010 is capable of 1400 watts per port or 40A per port (whichever limit is hit first)

Comparing the specs the 4010 is just as capable as a pair of PL8s

If charging 6S or 7S packs you run into the 40A charge amperage limit on both the PL8 and the 4010 before encountering the wattage limits of each charger and for all intents and purposes they will be identical. The 4010 only pulls away if you charge 9S or 10S packs because you're limited by the 40A max output of both chargers at anything smaller than a 9S pack.

Also, a single 4010 will have the cost and size advantage over a pair of PL8s ($350 vs $500, but that can be quickly eaten up by the extra cost of a 48V power supply for the 4010.) The 4010 also has slightly more balancing capability (1.2A vs the PL8's 1.0A) and can also handle up to 10S packs. As long as you run the 4010 in dual mode (40A / 1400W per port limit) you can treat it as two independent chargers and have just as much versatility as a pair of PL8s.

Of course if you get 2 PL8s, 2 power supplies, and build two charging stations you then have an advantage over the 4010 by being able split the load between two outlets/circuits while at home. Also, if one of the PL8s die you still have the second one to use while the first one is in for repairs.

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10-26-2012 07:14 PM  5 years agoPost 26
TheWoodCrafter

rrKey Veteran

Costa Mesa, Ca.

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Whether you have 1 big dual charger (4010) or 2 lesser separate chargers (PL8)the power requirements from a PS's and the wall will be the same.
Both situations will require more watts from a receptical than is available.

Thanks, TheWoodCrafter

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10-26-2012 07:59 PM  5 years agoPost 27
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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It just doesn't sound like a great option for a charger if you can't get the full capacity out of it at the field. Who wants to sit at home and have a great charge setup?

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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10-26-2012 08:49 PM  5 years agoPost 28
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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The cost, size, and balancing capability of the 4010 vs. two PL8s isn't all that significant.

  

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10-26-2012 09:06 PM  5 years agoPost 29
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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True, but if you can't extract the full potential out of the charger what is the point of having one that is so powerful? Bragging rights? I'm in.

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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10-26-2012 11:53 PM  5 years agoPost 30
Kiba

rrApprentice

CA

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True, but if you can't extract the full potential out of the charger what is the point of having one that is so powerful? Bragging rights? I'm in.
LOL!

Personally, I can't decide if I want to upgrade to a 4010. I like it on paper and I like the idea of using it in conjunction with a 2000W power supply-- but honestly I don't need the power.

After picking up a generator I cut down on the amount of packs I buy; I now have 2 packs per heli and field charge. I have 2 12S 5000 flight packs for my Goblin. As soon as I land and get the battery out I put it on the charger-- 1 6S pack per port of the charger and I charge each pack at 15A / 3C. I could also charge at 20A/4C (the limit of the Super Duo) but haven't felt the need to push the packs that hard yet.

After I start the charger I put the other already charged pack in the heli, do a quick pre-flight inspection, put the canopy on, and fly. By the time my timer beeps, land, and I have the canopy off and the battery out I only have to wait about 4-5 minutes for the previously flown pack to finish charging and during that 4-5 minutes all the electronics on the heli get a quick cool down.

If I don't want to exceed the current 3C charge rate or the 4C charge rate the Super Duo is already capable of the extra power of the 4010 gains me nothing. With the 4010 I could charge the 2 6S 5000 packs at about 28A each (generator limit) which would be 5.6C. That's beyond what Gens Ace recommends for the packs.

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10-27-2012 12:20 AM  5 years agoPost 31
cdrking

rrElite Veteran

Seattle

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For me two PL8/6's or 3010b's are the way to go. I too have change my program of buying more batteries. I like the idea of two sets of packs for each heli. What's even better is if you can share packs between machines, if they are compatible. This way the batteries don't have as much of a chance to age. After they lose their power then buy new, fresh packs.

We have power at our field but I don't think we'll be putting in 220 anytime soon. Unless of course I win the lotto and buy the field.

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.

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