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HomeRC & Power✈️Aircraft🚁HelicopterRadio - Spektrum DSM › "module" 2.4 compatible with 3GX?
11-11-2012 04:43 AM  7 years ago
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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UPDATE:

In short, it works. No problems, no unexpected behavior, it just plain works.

This post would be me putting my money where my fingertips are.

-----

I ran across an XP9303 with a Spektrum DSM2 AirModule here on RR about a week ago. It was too good a deal to pass up.

Fast forward to this evening. Having received the radio yesterday, and not getting a chance to mess with it till this evening, I dug out my Trex 500 which I recently upgraded to a DFC head and a brand-spanking new Align 3GX FBL controller. The 3GX unit has V2.1 firmware installed, and has flown with no problem.

The 3GX controller is connected to an AR7000 receiver with its satellite attached. No changes were made to my Trex 500, or the 3GX system.

Before proceeding, I set up a heli model in the new XP9303, and set all parameters exactly the same as my X9303 native 2.4 GHz radio.

I plugged the binding plug into my AR7000, and the XP9303/DSM2 Air Module bound immediately, with no problem.

I shut power off, removed the binding plug, and fired everything back up.

For the next 40 minutes, the 3GX system, the AR7000, the XP9303/AirModule combination has worked flawlessly, as expected, with NONE of the unexplained behavior that ZANEMAN has been shouting in this thread, and in several other threads here on RunRyder.

There is no reason that a 3GX controller, connected to an external Spektrum receiver, when controlled using an XP9303 radio having a Spektrum 2.4 GHz Air Module installed, won't work. In fact, that exact combination is currently still working on my bench, approaching nearly an hour of uninterrupted operation. The transmitter battery is running down a bit, I don't know the last time the previous owner charged it.

I would have absolutely NO reservations flying this setup.

-----

Perhaps my next step will be to remove the external AR7000 receiver and see what happens if I try to use a Spektrum satellite connected to the 3GX unit. This is a quite a bit more difficult, as I have to undo my installation on the Trex 500, and rearrange wires. Something I find I'm not all that willing to do at present.

Maybe I'll run across another 3GX unit at a decent price and snap that up in the near future.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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11-15-2012 01:22 PM  7 years ago
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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UPDATE 2...

Having successfully dispelled the "AirModule won't work with 3GX" myth, I just scored a NIB 3GX FBL controller. It should be here later this week.

This will allow me to check into the "AirModule with Satellite Receivers plugged into the 3GX controller won't work" report.

Stand by for NEWS.

Local "Internet Expert" at Work.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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11-15-2012 01:41 PM  7 years ago
Racedrvr

rrNovice

Kentucky Lake/Chicago Burbs

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Thank you so much for the work and effort in trying to determine if this is a real issue or not. Posting up actual testing results will assist us. I am very interested in how the "satellite only" binding and staying bound will work. I will stay tuned.
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11-21-2012 06:32 AM  7 years ago
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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UPDATE 3 --

I received a NIB V2.1 3GX system in the mail today. Since I recently obtained an XP9303 transmitter with a Spektrum DSM2 Air Module to convert it from 72MHz to 2.4 GHz operation, I now have all the pieces to fully test the 3GX with this transmitter, without having to disturb one of five helis currently flying with the 3GX controller.

I will be running a series of experiments with these bits and pieces, and will be posting the results in the next few days.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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11-23-2012 04:14 AM  7 years ago
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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UPDATE 4 --

Test results. Align 3GX, V2.1, JR XP9303 72 MHz transmitter, converted to 2.4 GHz using Spektrum DM9, JR compatible AirModule plug-in unit. Also using a Spektrum AR7000 receiver and its satellite, both DSM2 protocol.

Test 1 - AR7000 receiver and its satellite connected to 3GX controller as follows:

RX Aileron output to RED wire of 3GX RED/ORG/YEL cable harness.
RX Elevator output to ORANGE wire of 3GX RED/ORG/YEL cable harness.
RX AUX 1 output to YELLOW wire of 3GX RD/ORG/YEL cable harness.

RX Rudder output to GREEN wire of 3GX GRN/BLU/PUR cable harness.
RX AUX 2 (Rudder Gyro Gain) output to BLUE wire of 3GX GRN/BLU/PUR cable harness.
RX Throttle output to PURPLE wire of 3GX GRN/BLU/PUR cable harness.

A three wire male to male extension was plugged between the RX channel 5 (Gear/Governor Control) output and the 3GX S. BUS/BIND/BATT OUT port (horizontal connector on 3GX connector block bottom right corner). This connects the RX Governor control output to the 3GX governor control input. Power to the RX also is carried on this three-wire cable.

A 4-cell NiMh battery pack plugged into the 3GX power input, horizontal connector on lower left corner of the 3GX connector block supplied power for this test.

This is the recommended JR/Spektrum external 7-channel receiver connection found in the 3GX documentation.

-----

With the AR7000/Satellite/3GX controller connected as described above, a binding plug was inserted into the AR7000 Bind/Battery/Data port, power was applied to the system, and the transmitter was turned on while holding the "BIND" button down. This put the system into binding mode. The AR7000/Satellite/3GX and XP9303/DM9 system entered binding mode, and successfully bound as they should.

Following successful binding, the system was turned off, the bind plug removed from the receiver, and the system was powered up in DIR mode. I ran through the DIR mode setup, followed by the basic aileron/elevator limit and direction setting procedure. With the DIR and basic setup steps successfully performed, I entered the Gyro setup mode in the 3GX controller, and successfully programmed the gyro settings. Finally, I entered the parameter setting mode, and ran through a typical stick-setup process.

Throughout the entire process, the system behaved as expected, and exhibited NO abnormal behavior. The system worked flawlessly.

I would have no reservations or concerns about flying this combination and setup in any of my helis.

-----

Test 2 - AR7000 receiver and its satellite connected to 3GX controller as follows:

RX Aileron output to RED wire of 3GX RED/ORG/YEL cable harness.
RX Elevator output to ORANGE wire of 3GX RED/ORG/YEL cable harness.
RX AUX 1 output to YELLOW wire of 3GX RD/ORG/YEL cable harness.

RX Rudder output to GREEN wire of 3GX GRN/BLU/PUR cable harness.
RX AUX 2 (Rudder Gyro Gain) output to BLUE wire of 3GX GRN/BLU/PUR cable harness.
RX Throttle output to PURPLE wire of 3GX GRN/BLU/PUR cable harness.

A three wire male to male extension was connected between the RX channel 5 (Gear/Governor Control) output and the 3GX BATT OUT port (horizontal connector on 3GX connector block bottom right corner). This connects the RX Governor control output to the 3GX governor control input. Power to the RX also is carried on this three-wire cable.

A 4-cell NiMh battery pack plugged into the 3GX power input, horizontal connector on lower left corner of the 3GX connector block supplied power to the system.

A binding plug was installed in the RX Batt/Bind/Data port, and the RX and Satellite were again bound to the transmitter. Following a successful bind procedure, the cable connected to RX channel 5 (Governor Gain) was unplugged, and reinserted into the RX Batt/Bind/Data port.

In this configuration, power is applied to the RX over the three-wire cable plugged between the 3GX S.BUS/BIND/BATT OUT port (horizontal connector, lower right portion of the connector block) and the AR7000 BATT/BIND/DATA port.

This would be the recommended JR/Spektrum external 6-channel receiver connection found in the 3GX documentation.

I ran this test twice, using a two-wire cable (power and ground) between the 3GX S.BUS/BIND/BATT OUT port, as well as a standard three-wire extension cable between the two units.

-----

I was able to operate correctly in DIR mode, basic setup mode, gyro setup mode, parameter setting mode, and normal operation mode.

In the above configuration, the system once again operated as expected with no abnormal behavior. Once again, I would not have any reservations flying a 3GX system in that configuration in any of my helicopters, using the XP9303 and Air Module transmitter.

-----

Test 3 -- Single DSM2 satellite receiver plugged into the ANT 1 input of the 3GX controller. NO external AR7000 installed. IN this configuration, the DSM2 satellite is expected to replace any other external receiver connections. Power was supplied to the system using a standard 4-cell NiMh battery pack plugged into the 3GX power input port (horizontal connector, lower left corner of the 3GX connector block).

A binding plug was inserted into the 3GX S.BUS/BIND/BATT OUT port, power was applied, and the binding process was executed. The satellite receiver showed all signs of completing the binding process normally.

The bind plug was removed, power was applied to the system, and this time, the transmitter and receiver appeared to link up properly (receiver LED initially flashed at power on, then turned on solid, indicating it had successfully negotiated a link with the transmitter.

THIS SETUP DID NOT OPERATE, HOWEVER. In spite of what appeared to be a successful bind process, and successful link negotiation at power up, the 3GX controller was not functional. It appears that the 3GX system, in this scenario, does not understand the signal being delivered by the satellite receiver via the three-wire power/serial bus connection.

This configuration is unusable if the satellite RX is bound while connected to the 3GX controller. However, the system did NOT drive servos to their mechanical stops under all conditions tested. The servos simply did not move.

-----

Test 4 -- For this test, the DSM2 satellite was connected to the AR7000 receiver, and the transmitter/receiver binding process was executed. Following successful completion of the binding process, the satellite receiver was plugged into the 3GX ANT 1 port.

A pre-bound DSM2 satellite is used in this test as the ONLY receiver connected to the 3GX unit. This is the same condition as tested above in Test 3, however, the satellite was already bound to the transmitter when it was plugged into the 3GX unit.

NO additional binding procedure was performed. Power was applied to the system.

In this configuration, the system powered up properly, and functioned as expected in DIR mode, basic setup mode, gyro setup mode, parameter setting mode, and normal operation mode. No abnormal behavior was shown during any portion of this test.

Again, I would have no reservation with regard to flying this setup in any of my helicopters.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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11-24-2012 02:24 AM  7 years ago
Racedrvr

rrNovice

Kentucky Lake/Chicago Burbs

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Thanks Dave,
It looks like your test answered all the questions one could ask on this issue. I appreciate the extra effort you took to do this and test the different scenarios. I think we can put this issue to rest now.

Thanks again
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11-24-2012 04:37 AM  7 years ago
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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It took a while, and it cost me a couple of hundred dollars in the process. I did end up with a good second transmitter, a Spektrum DM9 Air Module and another 3GX system that needs a home, however.

I try to post good, reliable information here on RunRyder, as misinformation, inaccurate, or just plain bad information hurts everyone who visits RunRyder.

I think what finally pushed me to take some time and spend some money to figure this out was this particular post:
Is this a joke?
The question is, why are you giving out advice. It is obvious that you do not know what you're talking about.

And what deep understanding of electronics do you have? You do not know anything about the 3Gx. I mean you just got one like what yesterday, really.

So your lack of understanding is based on what osmosis?

Bottom line is you and your buddy are giving out bad information that could cause a serious crash and a dangers situation.

And you feel confident to do this, based on??????
a) A deep understanding of electronics.
b) Five posts a day on average.
c) You don't understand, but you've seen a photo.
d) Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Well I'm done because, you just don't get it.
In the end, as it turns out, I do own 3GX systems (five installed and performing quite well, and now a sixth waiting for a ride), I did know what I was talking about, it takes more than osmosis to be correct, the deep understanding of electronics that I have is that it's been my job for the past 36 years, I do understand and HAVE seen more than a photo, and as far as people disagreeing with me being wrong, I guess I'll never have the satisfaction of seeing Zaneman's apology, as he won't have the courage or character to read the entire thread, the results of my tests, and admit HE was wrong.

One other thing I may have proved is that being able to post (whether it's five posts a day, one, or a thousand) does not necessarily show that you know what you're talking about.

I guess I should now enjoy the title of "Internet Expert". I earned it.

Now go fly and enjoy.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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11-29-2012 04:19 AM  7 years ago
JetMech100

rrNovice

greensboro nc

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Well done and well said DK. It's guys like you that take the time and strive for the answer that keep me coming back here. Even though this post doesn't apply to me right now, I'll say thanks for your time.That which doesn't kill us only cost us money.
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01-02-2013 11:24 AM  7 years ago
Bruce Naylor

rrApprentice

Swindon, Wiltshire, UK

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Very interesting input. I've been struggling with 3GX with satallites with JR DM9 AirModule over xmas, and still struggling.

I don't have access to a 7000, but I do have 9000 rx's. No amount of binding with the 9000 and then plugging the sat's directly into the 3GX has worked for me. 9000 to 3GX obviously works a treat though, just hate all that extra wire. Is there something magic re:7000 over 9000 rx's?

My DM9 is an original JR with wire to sep. antenna - has there been updates? Can't find any info via Google.
"If you know what you're doing, you're not learning much"
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01-02-2013 04:04 PM  7 years ago
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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The AR9000 wants to operate in 2048 bit resolution mode, and does so when bound to a native mode DSM2 radio such as the X9303.

When bound to a DM9 AirModule, the AR9000 is forced to bind and operate in 1024 bit resolution mode.

The AR7000 only operates in 1024 bit resolution mode. Perhaps the algorithm used by the AR9000 to operate at the reduced resolution is causing your problems. Just a guess.

I do have a JR921 -- which should be the JR equivalent of the AR9000. It's installed in a heli, so experimenting is somewhat limited, but maybe I could spend some time in the near future looking at this aspect of the problem.
-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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01-03-2013 04:35 AM  7 years ago
teamdavey2001

rrApprentice

Sunnyvale, California, USA

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Dave,

Based on some experience with other equipment and the Tx module, I suspect that your analysis of the 7000/9000 issue is correct.

JD
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01-03-2013 02:25 PM  7 years ago
Bruce Naylor

rrApprentice

Swindon, Wiltshire, UK

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Thanks for the ideas.

I've acess to my son's DX6i, which seems happy binding/talking to the 3GX with sats but creates unduly corse servo movements.

Ok, getting to the "f**k it" stage with the 3GX/Spektrun sats solution, off to bend plastic for a DX8/18 and be done with it.
"If you know what you're doing, you're not learning much"
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01-09-2013 09:48 PM  7 years ago
mpafonseca

rrApprentice

Savannah, GA - USA

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Dave and others,

I have some experience with the 3GX combination with both RX and sats operating with a DM9 module that I would like to share. Reading all the initial discussion I believe I understand what Zaneman is talking about. It happened exactly the same behavior with my system with both externally bound sats and separate receivers (AR7000 in my case) and the cause has nothing to do with binding capability or model matching. What happened to me is due to the sensitivity of the DM9 module to over voltage. I was using a set of 3S lipos in my transmitter and the fully charged voltage was about 12.6V. With that my module was able to operate for 4.5 minutes before overheathing and rebooting. That was causing the lost signal to the receivers that started to blink and cause some drift on the 3GX. What I was doing was exactly as Zaneman described and during the setup I stopped to read the manuals and when I realized the sats were blinking and the 3GX drifting. I did a lot of experimentation with different receivers and sats until during one of the tests there was a mirror in my room and I saw the module light go off and on again exactly at the fault time. Then I realized what was going on. I was able to reproduce the event any time I wanted and in my system, the overheat time was pretty consistent with transmitter battery voltage. I went back to nicads to the transmitter and added voltage regulators to my 3S lipos keeping the voltage close to what the nicads have. Now I use externally bound sats in all my 3GXs for almost 2 years without any issues. I never missed a bit or had any blinking sats in flight.
The DSM modules work at lower voltage and do not tolerate to much over it, so DO NOT use 3S lipos on your transmitter without a regulator (charging the bateries to storage mode also works but you loose half of its capacity).

Just one last question, Zaneman where you using transmitter lipos when the issue happened to you?

Thank you and good flight for all..

Marco
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01-09-2013 10:04 PM  7 years ago
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Marco -- quite an informative and valuable post. Thanks for that bit of missing information.-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz
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01-09-2013 10:45 PM  7 years ago
JKos

rrProfessor

Redondo Beach, CA

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Since I already had an XP9303, DM9, and AR7000, I purchased a 3GX just to test this issue. I had exactly the same results as Dave (dkshema).

- John
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